Self bailer for DS1?

Topics primarily or specifically about the DS1. Many topics are of general interest, so please use forum sections on Rigging, Sails, etc. where appropriate.

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Self bailer for DS1?

Postby Mariah » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:35 am

Has anyone installed a self bailer speced for a DS2 on a DS1?
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby tomodda » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:49 pm

Hi Mariah, welcome to the forum!

A "point of order," this question is probably best posted under DS1 or "Repair and Improvement" section of this forum. Our moderator - GreenLake - can move the thread, if warranted.

As to your question, I'll answer with my own question - Are you racing your boat? If not, then the cost/benefit of a self-bailer probably is not worth it. Besides the $82.99 dollar cost of the bailer itself, you are adding a very crucial point of failure to your boat (two actually, you'll need one on each side). Also adding a marvelous device for getting your foot caught/cut, and getting lines and gear hung up on, right in the bottom of your boat. And then there's all the ways those things can jam.... So, what benefit? Well, if you are racing, and you are competitive enough that a few extra pounds of water and the few seconds that it takes to scoop them out with a cut-off milk jug really matter.... then sure, auto-bailer. Otherwise, in my own not-humble opinion, the milk jug works just fine, gives my crew something to do. I also carry an ordinary bucket (which double as my miscellaneous gear container) and a big car-washing sponge for any amounts of water greater or lesser than a milk-jug scoop-full.

I dunno how much DaySailer experience you've had, but will tell you that for ordinary sailing around, a bit of water in the bilges is normal. I usually have at least a gallon sloshing around and ignore it till the end of the day. On more "sporty" sailing days, I'll bail a bit whenever it gets over my ankles or thereabouts. Once, while I was testing how far I could heel the boat and still control her, I shipped quite a lot of green water over the coamings. Not surprisingly, I wound up with water up to the seat-tops. She sails like a well-fed pig with that much water in her, but is otherwise controllable. Anyway, a few minutes with the bucket took care of most of the water, and I drained the rest out on the trailer. All this just to say (write), that some water in the bilges is OK. If you are racing competitively, then your mileage may vary....

Fair winds!

Tom
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby GreenLake » Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:39 am

Welcome to the forum. Have a look around, we have organized the threads into subforums. I'm happy to move your thread to the "DS1" section. That's where we keep threads that are specific to the DS1, while common issues of Rigging, Sails, Improvements and Seamanship each provide a home for threads that aren't affected by the differences in DS models. So be sure to look there as well.

As for the Tom's question back at you, I would say I mostly agree with his observations, with the exception that I tend to sail in flat water so the only time I get water in the boat is when it's raining (or snowing). Definitely don't sail around with gallons sloshing about (again, that might be different, if I were to sail slamming into waves).

Biggest source of water for me is a bit of a drip from the CB handle. I usually don't try to tighten it too much, just enough so that a sponge placed under the drip is able to take care of things.

I sail an older DS1, the one that usually has the wooden floorboards, but I've made do without them for a while now, and that motivates me to not have any water about if I can help it (before that, if a bit of it puddled under the floorboards, I might not notice as much.)

I have sailed on a DSII and those are notorious for shipping water from the CB uphaul line. But, we weren't on a race, so we just took turns to bail manually. In that case, we used a manual pump (looks a bit like a bicycle pump). That did quick work: we spent perhaps a minute or two on this every hour, so manageable.

I own one of those kids toys that are a straight piston intended to squirt people. They have a nozzle that will suck water even from a shallow puddle, so perfect for getting small amounts of water from the lowest point in the hull. For anything major, I have the bleach bottle bailing scoop and bucket in reserve, just like Tom mentioned.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby GreenLake » Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:42 am

More relevant: the kind of self bailer that was developed for the DS2 has to cope with the fact that the cockpit and hull are separated by a distance. Modern versions of the D1 also feature a double hull, but I'm not sure the dimension are the same. Older DS1s have a single hull, and would need a differently dimensioned bailer I think.

I could swear this issue has been discussed here before. One of the advantages is that the forum never forgets, so feel free to spelunk a bit. You never know what you'll find.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby Mariah » Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:18 am

Thank you for your responses and will endeavor to post future items in a more appropriate section. I appreciate your perspective on the down sides of another hole in the hull. After many years of family sailing on Mariah I, I sold it and bought Mariah II that is rigged for racing and this was my first season of racing with my son as crew. Fleet 1 in Annapolis races in the harbor area but is subject to choppy waters and with the combing cut down to the deck surface, it is easy to ship water. With more practice, I hope to keep the bilge a little drier.
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby GreenLake » Wed Oct 19, 2022 1:38 pm

Ah, good, that sets a bit of context. But you don't state whether Mariah II is a single or double hulled boat.
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby tomodda » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:40 pm

Yes, now that you told us that you're racing in Fleet 1, that changes things. Definitely one of the more competitive fleets. As GreenLake pointed out, if you have a double-hulled boat (DS2 or Spindrift DS1), then the Andersen Bailers are a good investment. You absolutely have to get that extra dead weight out as soon as possible, and you can't get to it easily in a double-hulled boat, so Anderson it is.

For a single-hulled Daysailer (original DS1), it's a judgement call. How often is your crew out on a wire (trapeze)? Can't be all that much on the Severn, although I think Fleet 1 has a Fall Series that gets "sporty." What will a few seconds scooping with the bailer really cost you in your OODA loop (Observation->Orientation->Decision->Action)? Again, I don't race anymore, but I try to keep things moving... when I'm really shipping a lot of water, I make it a point to scoop some water at each tack, as I (or my crew) swap sides. Lots of other work to do at that moment, of course, but I try to fit in a bit of bailing. Anyway, think thru the benefits of an autobailer vs adding holes to your hull. Personally, I'd leave it be until I'm consistently in the front 3 or 4 boats in my fleet, then I'd think about what needs tweaking to get to that next level. Usually the key to getting there is more concentration/speed smarts from the skipper and crew, will an auto-bailer give you that? Maybe, but beware of GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome).

Tom
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby paukie1 » Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:43 am

I installed a self-bailer in my an older DS1 (single-hulled) this past weekend. I sail on San Francisco Bay, which often has strong winds and lots of chop - ideal for a wet boat, upwind or down. I don't want my crew hand bailing in those conditions. Too dangerous IMO. I've owned and raced numerous boats in my sailing career: Thistles, a Snipe, 470, Intl FJ's, to name a few. All have had at least one bailer.
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby GreenLake » Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:58 am

Yep, that sounds reasonable. We're in full agreement that the decision comes down to a tradeoff, and you describe a scenario where the benefits are not to be dismissed.
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Re: Self bailer for DS1?

Postby tomodda » Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:59 am

Yeah, SF Bay can be brutal, no time to be faffing about with a hand-bailer. Never seen an auto-bailer in an FJ though, don't you have those nice transom ports with the rubber balls on elastic? Always thought those are cute :).
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