Seized Mastjack

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Seized Mastjack

Postby BaltJones » Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:26 pm

Hello all!

I've just acquired a '64 DS1 and am looking forward to getting her on the water. I've also run into my first obstacle.

The mast jack is seized up tight. I've spent a good bit of time with it on a bench trying to coax a little movement without breaking anything. I found some plumbers strap makes a good collar to protect the brass from the jaws of a pipe wrench, but I'm still wary of pushing too hard. Still, lots of PB Blaster and WD40 have been sprayed and not a budge.

The boat sat in a garage/barn for something like 20-30 years. I think it is just grime in the threads but can't say for sure. As it stands now, I can't pull enough tension in the shrouds to get them attached, so the boat doesn't go near the water until I get it sorted out.

Any suggestions? If I can't get it moving should I just shorten the shrouds and add turnbuckles? I'd like to experience everything on the boat as close to stock as possible for a season before I start modifying, but maybe that's not possible in this case.

Thanks for any help.
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby Hesedguy » Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:31 pm

I'd give it some heat. A Bernzomatic torch would work, but you'll want to be careful, theoretically the propane torch can melt the brass if held in one place too long.
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby GreenLake » Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:30 pm

Welcome to the forum!

My first question for this discussion: are you guys sure that it is brass? I thought it was bronze. Mine is a '63. I don't know what the factory original configuration for the "nut" is, but mine had been drilled by some PO. He used the rear end of a nail punch as a lever, and that system is what I've been using hundreds of times. (I'm suggesting that not for trying to break it lose as much as for ease of operation).

When applying heat, one way to make this a bit more controlled is to use an intermediary, such as a heated bit of steel, that you can safely heat to any temperature (and if you overshoot, you can let it cool down a bit). After it has the right temperature, you apply it to the nut. In principle, you could also apply cold to the threaded bar... not sure if you have a cold source that gives enough of a differential before making things brittle.

I assume, you've used whatever penetrating oils are rated best? If unsure, Practical Sailor did a review (they do a lot of reviews, but as they are ad-free, they ask for a subscription; well worth it, even if you don't own a big boat, and subscribers get online access to all the past reviews).

PS: if you give us a bit of background about yourself and how you came to getting your DS, we might do better in directing you to resources without telling you what you already know.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby BaltJones » Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:09 pm

Thanks to you both. Heat will be the next attempt. I also talked to D&R Marine, and perhaps it isn't the end of the world if I never get it to move. I can always replace the stays with a new set including turnbuckles. I hear it is a good idea to upgrade to 1/8" anyway; I'm pretty certain these are the origninals. I was(am) trying to avoid throwing money at issues as soon as they appear - I'll be broke in no time that way. I'd rather fix what I can, get on the water as soon as possible, and prioritize once I have a more complete picture of what I want and what the boat needs.

GL-I think you're correct, the mastjack is bronze, not brass. Either I read brass somewhere and it stuck, or maybe I just made it up.

My story - I'm coming back to sailing with this boat. Roughly twenty years ago I sailed Hobie 16s in Northern California. I was never more than a novice but always loved it. I'm excited to continue learning and see what these boats with only one hull are good for.
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:46 pm

Nice. Thanks for sharing a bit about your story.

Don't give up on the mast jack. I find it terribly convenient. I did upgrade to the 1/8th from Rudy, but he has stays that are adjustable, but just to set the exact length. I tension the rig with the mast jack.

It's not just the added strength: SS wire will fail suddenly as result of crevice corrosion which is hard to detect. We don't usually use our DS as much as people do with making passage in keelboats, but 60 years is a multiple of the nominal lifetime.

PS: a while ago I pulled a bunch of stuff together with the intent of providing some sort of refresher on how to sail the DS. You can find it, and the notes on flying the DS symmetric spinnaker in the "Seamanship and Boat handling" section of the forum. If you do look at any of these, I'd love some feedback on whether anything is missing, anything was useful and the like, including any questions on these topics (there's a particular thread in that section for that kind of discussion, and it's linked from one of the others).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby BaltJones » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:34 am

Thanks. I'll keep at the mastjack. With some help I was able to get the current stays attached over the weekend, but it wasn't easy or practical for the long term. It did let me know it can be done, and gave me a chance to get the sails up (still on trailer) just to check everything out. That part was wonderfully straightforward.

I've been reading through some of the DS/general sailing topics. Lots of great information so far, and a lot to digest. Step by step.
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:24 pm

The key is to get the mast jack to work as a jack, that is to get the bronze nut to turn. Once that works, attaching fixed length stays should be a snap, because they are not under tension until the mast jack is jacked up.

From a previous owner I inherited a small home built contraption that makes stepping a keel stepped mast almost as easy as using a tabernacle. I've written about it extensively, here in the forum and in a writeup.

You may want to look up the past discussion.

Like a tabernacle, it uses a hinge, but it's not part of a divided mast, but external, so the mast remains keel-stepped. With it, I regularly step and unstep the mast by myself while standing in the cockpit.

Here are a few pictures as a teaser:
274415452679

The construction is dead simple and requires no advanced skills. The mast end is inserted into the sleeve, the mast is lifted into the vertical, and when it's aligned it can be lowered through the deck (it won't go in unless it's pretty well in alignment). With practice, I can hit the mast jack pin blind, but the mast is held well enough that you can even risk bending down for a quick peek, if you missed it.

The whole thing is attached to a disk made from aluminum that is bolted around the mast partners (the opening in the deck). That disk can be used to attach fairleads and other useful things w/o needing to drill the deck for each fitting.

You can see the disk, the cluster of 4 bolts close to the mast that hold it, one of the fairleads (black) which I use for things like spinnaker halyard, and the simple hinge, the wooden block to which it is attached, and the bit of aluminum sheet metal that forms the sleeve itself. That's basically it. (There's a T strap to help support the attached block against twist, and, not shown, a bit of material that fills the gap between deck and disk in the front to keep out the jib sheet. Refinements I added over the years.)

I also added a U bail, seen in some of the pictures, to attach the vang. (The sleeve is strong enough to easily withstand the pull from the vang).

A more complete description can be found under "raising a keel-stepped mast".
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby sailordie1962 » Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:01 pm

Very cool set up! I always struggle to step the mast by myself, and locating the pin can be a nightmare while juggling the mast. I especially like the idea of the plate, where any number of useful blocks might be added without drilling unnecessary holes. I may copy the whole arrangement!
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby BaltJones » Mon Mar 11, 2024 11:36 am

Just to close the loop on this thread, 1 year later:

I ultimately spent last year with the seized mast jack and stays that were probably too loose, but this past weekend I finally got it to move. I just recently had access to a vice where I could leave the mast jack (instead of the one at work, where I could steal some time but had to clean up when done). I spent a couple days with heat on/off and then let it sit with penetrating oil for a few days, tapping and trying to turn every day or so. Finally it moved.

I'll say, now that it moves, it is a beautiful bit of machining and I'm looking forward to having it back on the boat. I'll replace the stays, too, now that I know turnbuckles aren't my only tensioning option.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. Heat, oil, and time (just like cooking).
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Re: Seized Mastjack

Postby GreenLake » Mon Mar 11, 2024 5:10 pm

Great news!
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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