thoughts on moving up

[Roger]

So I submit this new thread with trepidation... (is it sacreligious to speak of other boats here?).

I am having some thoughts about moving up. I am wanting to do more overnighting and eating on board, going further, camping for a couple of days, and generally thinking about a boat that has a bit more room under.

I have lurked on the Sandpiper site and determined that although these are nice boats and seem to have some class association, they are generally poor performers. The crank up cb keel is also a negative.

I have looked at the Sirius, nice galley and settee area, and good performer, but maybe just a bit bigger than I am wanting. The Siren on the other hand is not only too small, but a poor performer.

I am looking at the Halman/Nordica 20 and although one of its negatives is the smaller cockpit, it seems to be the kind of shippier design that I am looking for.

I would appreciate comments from anyone who has sailed in both a DS and any one of the above comparative boats. What did you like or dislike about any of these designs?

[crawford]

In 1993 I sold my DS2 and bought a Catalina 22. It was easy to haul, launch, and enjoy. Until 2003 I owned and ssailed two other catalina 22s. Great boat.
But I sold them and the other boats that I had collected and in 2006 came back to DS1. I like my boat. It is fast and friendly, but I do miss the nights out with a cockpit and "downstairs".
But I am older now and want a responsive and easy to rig boat that my knees will like better. So after three years of haggling I was able to buy hull #318. I like building and rebuilding so it was a joy to work on.
Hope you find the boat that will work for you.
DC

[dsheer]

Roger,

I've owned three monohulls, a C&C Shark (24') a Pearson 30, and now a DS1. Only the DS1 was trailerable (I'd guess you could trailer the Shark - drew only 3' even though the keel was fixed). I really liked the Shark - I could even get it to plane on a reach in a good wind. Its cockpit was large, and it's interior was very simple. i could actually sleep 4 people without too much trouble.

First, there is a great deal of difference between sailing a keel boat and sailing a dinghy. Keel boats are slower and much, much less responsive. They are, however, much more forgiving. Even the Shark would carry through a tack, regardless of how slowly you moved the tiller, and you could control the sail much more easily. A keel boat is supposed to heel. Just as it took me several sails before I could properly handle the DS1, I think it will take you several sails before you are comfortable with a keel boat. You may not like it. Try it first. This is the most important thing.

Second, if you go out overnight, you will be spending time in the cabin. Layout is critical. Going to a boat with standing headroom is a big deal, which is why I bought the 30. I cruised the Chespeake and circumnavigated the DelMarVa penninsula, racing both dolphins and turtles. In a really small keelboat, a bad layout may look good but make your cruising really uncomfortable.

In a small boat, simple is best. IMHO, layouts with a fixed table on one side stink. They are uncomfortable to the point of being useless. In a 20 footer, it may be uncomfortable sleeping 2 in the bow because the boat will have a significant tilt due to weight distribution. Try it out in the water.

Cockpit size is critical if you plan to sail with more than 2. There is very little worse than having crew constantly struggling to stay out of the way. One of the great advantages of the DS1 from my point of view is it's relatively large cockpit.

I expect to buy another keelboat, I only sold the 30 because it was too far away to have time to sail and maintain. Now my kids are grown and working, willing to contribute time and money, and I have more time since I'm not chauffering them all over the place. Still I like to be able to trailer the boat to a new place and explore without worrying about getting the keel stuck in the mud, so I'll likely keep the DS1 as well.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Good Luck and Happy Sailing. Buy a well used boat so you won't lose your shirt when you sell it.

Dan

[Kevin F]

Roger,

Dan in the previous post did a very good job in explaining the move up to a "over night" design. I went from a Cape Dory Typhoon to 30 footer with all the "stuff". 44 foot mast, yanmar diesel, 5'2" keel @ 4000lbs, 36 inch wheel, nav station, etc, etc,etc. With that said the need for standing head room can not be over stated, 6'2" in the case of my last boat. If you want to go into over nighting then go with both feet into the right boat for all the reasons Dan stated. I did it for about ten years and now have DS 1 it works with my new keep it simple / keep it low cost, boating mentality. As a reality check it cost me about 4K to keep / maintain the 30 footer in the Chesapeake Bay per year.

Good luck in your search

[Roger]

Thanks you three, (so far). You are echoing my thoughts exactly. Both the Halman and the Sirius have sitting headroom, and I would have to go to something significantly larger, like a 25 (Seaward, Bayfield, etc etc) to get standing headroom. I think that is much larger than I am wanting to go for trailerability, maneuverability, and just sheer bulk. I was even thinking that a 22 was too large. My brother in law had an Oday 22 and found it difficult to manage alone. My wife does not sail, so most often I am either alone or with someone who also does not sail, so the ability to be able to sail it (essentially) solo, is important. The reasons that I would be moving up (please free to challenge these, as this is why I am thinking out loud on the forum) are as follows:

1. Sitting headroom to sit out bad weather at anchor
2. Ability to sleep comfortably on board, perhaps with grandkid
3. Some onboard cooking ability, stove, cooler
4. Ability to cruise other lakes and stay overnight or weekend without tenting.
5. Standing headroom in the cockpit while under sail. (I like walking around the boat).
6.Self righting
7. More room 'downstairs'

All of these are countered by the following facts:

1. The current boat is simple, easy to sail and a good performer
2. I can sleep on board now, albeit uncomfortably
3. I can take a cooler and some simple cold meals, the DS even has its own beer cooler in the cockpit!
4. I can cruise other lakes now, but weekending would be difficult on this size of boat.
5. I can stand and walk around the boat now, but have to duck to tack.
6. A good performer may outweigh having a better 'downstairs' as I tend to stay in on land if the weather is nasty.
7. I don't see a lot of people at my marina who have a 'downstairs' using their downstairs. Perhaps it is somewhat overrated... the bigger the boat, the more it sits at the dock.

[Kevin F]

Roger,


I can't help myself. Now that you are thinking out loud and defined your criteria as to your definition of " moving up". There just might be a boat that fits almost all your "positives" to moving up. It is a relatively rare boat designed by W. Shad Turner called a Windrose 5.5. 18 ft. length, 8 foot beam, 2'3" draft ( shoal draft fixed keel = no CB trunk), 1500 lbs weight, and it puts up about 160 ft. sq. sail. She is designed to cruise with a forward V berth and two quarter berths, cabin seating, storage, and a head. Now hold on it also has a very high boom. The only thing is the self righting part, which with the Windrose's designed sail area to displacement as low as it is, it maybe difficult to put her on her head. I said maybe since I have never sailed one and only have seen one I my boating life, and mistook it for a C 22. The down side of this boat is to get the "down stairs " it has alot of free board.


With all that said moving away from a DS is not an easy decision due to boats positive characteristics. Your list and alot of peoples experience and fun add weight to staying put. Your last statement is some what true in my case, even though my wife and I both sail, and my kids grew up on a sail boat the bigger our boat got the less we used it.

Final sign off.

[gary l. britton]

Hello Roger:

I do hope that you will keep the DS I, and continue your posts. I always enjoy reading them and have learned much from your advise. My DS I is my second boat, I moved up from a 1974 Sidewinder, 16'. Back gots too sore from hiking out and it is not a stable boat at all for this old Fart. It is a racer. So, I purchased my DS I and am very happy with it. But my better half very rarely sails with me and I mostly sail single handed. I think that she is a little bit nervous about the possiblilty of capsize, which is yet to happen on the DS I. (knock on wood) I have been considering the purchase of another little boat in the 16-20 foot range that has better self-righting ablility than the DS I and can be trailored with my little Ford Ranger. If I find one that I like I would probably keep the DS I and have two boats, much to my wifes chagrin. We would not need the boat for overnighters since that probably would not happen unless I did solo. Mainly a little cuddy that is somewhat comfortable and maybe a porta potty also. You mentioned looking for a Nordica. If I could find a Nordica 16 I would jump at it. I have read about them and they sound like just what the doctor ordered. (ugly little things out of the water though) An N-16 would be about my speed since a N-20 would be much too heavy for my little truck, and I want things simple. But the odds of finding one in the Oklahoma area seem to be slim to none. They seem to be rare to find anyway.

Well, take care and good luck on the new to you boat hunting and keep us posted on your progress and again, hope you also keep the DS I.

Fair winds

Gary
1966, DS I
"Dancing Girls II", #3235

[KaiB]

Exactly what Gary said...

OT...Gary, I just sent a PM

Kai

[jpclowes]

Roger
Can I offer a....well non-traditional suggestion, that I think you can make fit your criteria. My dad used to have, and frequently single handed a J-22. I know a lot of people who read this site are saying "Huh?!?!" since the J is generally thought of as a small fast racing boat, but hear me out. My dad modified his J-22 so it had 2 quarter berths, and a porta-poty. There was ample room for a cooler in the bow section, and we even cooked out on it with one of those single burner backpacker stoves. I am 6' and 200+ pounds, and my father and I were able to sleep comfortably aboard, and sit upright on the quarterberths.

The boat is a keelboat, however it is a good performer with a very dinghy like feel when sailed, (like I said above, it is a popular racing boat,) I can't say how hard it is to launch, since my dad kept it in the water and had a marina launch it, but I know it is done, and trailered frequently. The boat weighs 1800 lbs, so it is fairly light for a keelboat.

Another option I don't know as much about is a Benetteau 21.0 which has more accomodations, and a swing keel.

[Roger]

Gary,

I appreciate your thoughts. Over the last couple of days, I have actually entertained keeping the DS II and 'trying out' a larger boat for next season. As you say, that would likely go over like a lead ballon with the admiral! I already have a fleet which includes a couple of canoes and kayaks.

I did help launch a Nordica 16 once, and with that insight I can offer the following. The cockpit is small, as is the cabin, and the cockpit is not self bailing being lower than the waterline. That would be one thing that I would really be concerned about. The one I helped launch also had a British Seagull, a real gem to watch going out onto the lake. The sailors were novices however, and the lake was starting to pile up, so after a mile or so, they returned to the launch ramp. It was a real butch (exchange the appropriate vowel) to get back onto its trailer, and I ended up jumping into about 4' of water to help line it up on the keel roller, but that would be a problem with any boat in those kind of conditions. While shouldering the hull however, I did notice a fair amount of 'oil canning' which I was surprised given the stout build of this boat.

I also have a Ford Ranger so as you know the upper limit of trailerability is about 1400#. That would limit me except at my base lake where I only have to haul the boat about 100 feet for winter storage, and in summer the trailer would sit a few miles away. Certanly do-able with the Ford Ranger. Going further afield (?further alake) however, like I think I may want to do, would restrict me with my current tow vehicle. I am due for a newer tow vehicle in the next year or so anyhow, so I have built into the equation something with greater tow capacity, say around 5000# like a F150, or the new Toyota Landcruisers that just came out this year.

The things that concern me most about the Nordica 20 are the small cockpit, and as Dsheer indicated in a previous post, there is nothing worse than crew always being in the way. As I look at the winch setup, it would seem that to cleat it, one would have to be on the leeward sid of the cockpit and well aft.

Certainly one of the real positives of owning a Daysailer is the large class association and this forum, which shows that this design is not only popular but that the boat itself has ALOT of positive characteristics. I don't see that on a lot of other forums, or at least I haven't found them yet. That is a real concern that tells me that these other designs are not as popular. It makes me think that thousands of people (well at least 494 posters as of today) cannot be wrong!

I should have a bit more insight after this weekend. I am overnighting on the DS and will report on that late Monday.

JP and Kaib:

Thanks for the sentiments.

I will check out a J for specs etc. as well as the Beaneteau. Thanks for the lead.

[gary l. britton]

Hi again Roger:

Every boat has its undesirable characteristics. I do know about the N-16 not being self bailing and yes that can be a drawback. Since I would not need a bigger cabin as you, that would be no problem for me. In actuality, whenever I am looking for another boat, I always seem to come back to a Potter-15. There are a lot of them and some very active forums. From what I have read on the Potter sites, they seem to be very stable boats, can handle faily heavy winds, have a cabin that would be suitable for my needs, and be easy to trailer with my 4-banger Ford Ranger. And I am looking for an older model of any boat even if it may have some sprucing up that needs go be done. (as long as it is not major stuff) Another one that I might like would be the Rhodes 19, CB, but that might be a little heavy.

Anyway I have babbled enough.

Fair winds,

Gary

[calden]

Since I've been sailing the DSI I have, just for fun, kept my eye out for something larger in a weekender boat. (This seems to be part of the boating disease.) I've also crewed on my friends' J24, and took a sailing course on, then rented, a Capri 22.

No doubt about it, a slightly larger boat has it's advantages in terms of space and stability. It's fun to let the boat heel at a nice balance point and not fear flipping. I've thus harbored thoughts of a slightly larger boat. (Get it? "Harbor" thoughts? hee hee)

My good friend who is an experienced sailor has just finished renovating a WWP 19 to get practice in renovating his Pacific Seacraft 24. Both are in his garage, and he's got gallons of West System epoxy on the shelves. I've been inside both, and the WWP 19 feels roomier inside! I would think that is a good boat to consider for your needs.

I like the DS because it feels like a larger version of the Sunfish I learned on, but I can take people with me. If I were to get another boat I'd really go up for the cabin room, and seel the DS to get something very small to sail for fun, like a Laser. Several weeks ago I saw someone putting in a Bongo - now THERE'S a boat built for fun.

Carlos