Shrouds too small?

[gosailing]

We purchased a DS1 a few weeks ago - literally in a barn full of bird droppings. Hull is in good shape but really needed a clean. Took it to a Truck (18 wheeler) wash - after $85 of pressure hosing - still looked dirty.

Have now scrubbed it all down with a good scrub brush and have started doing some of the interior fiberglass work. Have sanded the combings and stained - bought some teak and have made a new cooler cover.

Sails just 3 years old. Serial number starts: 147 ___, definitely made by O'day, last four digits suggest May, 1975.

Here's my question - the shrouds seem awfully small - 3/16"? Is that the standard size for DS1's?

The previous owner(s) have re-rigged the mast. The spreaders have been moved down below the sidestay tangs so now the shrouds run from mast tang, through spreader slots down to deck chain plate. The original, kite style spreader rigging has been dispatched. Have others done the same? Is this to reduce spreader rub on the sails?

Les

[Roger]

The original were 3/32, many later owners beefed it up to 1/8, and some to 3/16.

As for the spreader refit, this is the first time I have heard of this modification, so I can't comment.

[Phill]

Les,

As Roger said, 3/32" 1 X 19 wire is the standard size for the shroulds and forestay. I have replaced mine, after they were 25 years old, and now have another 15 years of pretty serious racing on the 'new' ones.

For the shroud/forestay configuration, I found this picture



in the photo section of this site. It is just a drawing, but should show what is normal on most of our boats. If you were talking about the upper jumper stays, and smaller forward reaching 6" or so spreaders, most of us have removed them to let the upper mast section bend more, which helps depower in puffs, and makes the boat more forgiving to sail.
(sorry for the run-on sentence)

Hope this helps.

phill

[gosailing]

Thanks for the information. The photo seems to be what I have however there are unused tangs at the top of the mast on each side and the same about a third of the way down (only facing up). There are two mounting holes between the two sets of tangs.

I am thinking that the previous owner has done what you mentioned, i.e., removed the upper jumper stays and the 6" spreaders.

That makes me feel much better - I was afraid it was a do-it-yourself rig job and the structural integrity might be compromised.

I have another question - there is a through hull hole (seems to be a manufacturers hole) located a few inches behind the centerboard housing unit. It has been plugged by one of the previous owners but I was just wondering what the hole was used for. My helpful neighbor suggested that it was used for ice fishing. I was thinking that it was for a transducer?

Les

[Phill]

I think I have the same hole at the aff end of the trunk. About 1/2" diameter. Mine was tapped and has a brass screw plug in it. I also have a spare nylon screw that will fit it, in my spare parts. I find that hole helpful for draining the boat in the winter. I can keep the boat level and most water finds its way out of that hole.


You can remove the extra tangs at the top of the mast, and the ones that should be just above the spreaders. If you still have the forward reaching top spreader bracket, that can also be removed. The rivets that hold all of them to the mast are very strong and tough. Some kind metal other than aluminum. I ended up using an angle grinder and grinding off the rivet heads, and then pulling the tangs, then dremeling/grinding the rest of the rivet body flush with the mast. I think that even after a few seasons of racing, that those rivets never did fall out. Keep the tangs, I used mine for the turning blocks at the base of the mast for my spinnaker halyard and spin pole topping lift.



another picture can be found in the 'tech info' section of the forum in the rigging guide article.

Hope this helps.

phill

[gosailing]

Thanks Phill, that's the hole I'm talking about. The one on my boat has a plastic plug expoxied into it. I am going to leave it as is.

I thought I would use the top tangs as part of a topping lift for the boom. Run a short line connecting the two tangs and then run a line from the boom and click into connecting line.

Do you have a topping lift for your boom? What do you think of my plan?

Les

[DS 1858]

Those tangs are probably to the jumper shrouds. On older daysailers the masts came with short spreaders and shrouds on the upper third of the mast to stiffen it. Current thinking is that it makes the mast too stiff up top and most people remove them so the mast will bend in stronger wind and depower the mainsail.

The hole just aft the the C/B is the origional cockpit or hull drain plug. It took a treaded brass plug that screwed in from the inside of the hull. I still use mine and always take it out when the boat is on the trailer so water won't sit in the boat.

[Phill]

Les, are you thinking of the boom topping lift for when you are moored to keep the boom up and have a mooring cover use the boom for a center pole? Or, are you thinking of needing it to keep the boom up while sailing?

I have never felt the need to hold up the boom for sailing, except for in very very light air. Usually there is enough wind that you will not have any need to aid the boom. In fact, that is why we have boom vangs, to hold the boom somewhat down to keep the mainsail from twisting open too much. Since all of us are in the same boat, ( ) we live with a hooked main when the wind gets light. (drifter)

For mooring, it might be a good idea, but I think it could interfere with the cover. Most who moor, seem to use some form of support from underneath. The older DS's came with a paddle that doubled as a boom crutch for just that purpose. The old floorboards had a slot in them for the paddle blade, and a small keyed fastener that held the paddle to the rear coaming board. The paddle handle was notched to fit the underside of the boom.. Those who still have that system, highly prize it. Others not so lucky have found a way to make an X shaped brace that also does the job.

The other consideration with leaving the tangs, is what we call windage. Wind resistance that adds to the tipping force in strong winds and turblulance that subtracts from the smooth wind flow over the mast and sail, robbing preformace. In one class that I once sailed, the obsession over windage was soo great, that all above deck fittings on mast and boom were faired with microballons, bodies were shaved, head and arm hair, very tight clothing like that used by racing bicyclists, and crew constantly reminded to keep his/her head out of the wind.
Also, there is the slight chance that if your mast gets too close to something that could snag on the fittings, you could loose the mast, when the snag would otherwise slide off harmlessly. Tree branches,(thats how i bent my current mast), other boat shroulds when too close. (thats how i lost my Alspar mast), are just two examples.

I bet you thought you asked a simple yes/no question.
You will find that many 'solutions' become spider webs of related problems.
Welcome to sailing ??

phlll

[gosailing]

Hi Phill, My thoughts were to create a clip on topping lift that would only be used when the sail was about to be lowered. This would allow us to flack the sail on the boom rather than have everything drop into the cockpit.

When not in use the topping lift would be disconnected from the boom and cleated to the mast.

The other thing - I'm not going to be the only one sailing the boat and given the damage to the cockpit area from the boom dropping with the sail a topping lift would stop this.

We have a lake front cottage so we don't have to worry about other boats being close by.

I'm thinking I will remove the old tangs (aside from windage - it makes the boat look unfinished ) and attach a new fitting to the top of the mast for my topping lift.

Speaking of boomvangs - unfortunately somewhere along the way the boom vang has been lost. I can see where the boom vang block fits into the boom but that's about it. Any recommendations as to the size or type of fitting I should buy?

The other thing - it's been cool and rainy here for the last 5 days and I haven't been able to work on my boat. When is the weather going to improve?

Les

[calden]

Les:

I've got a topping lift on my boat. I don't unclip it from the boom end when sailing -[ I just loosen it enough so it doesn't interfere with the sail.

Line path:

-boom end to block at mast top (either cheek block attached to mast or a strap eye with a block clipped on)

-from mast top down to block at mast foot (same choice as above)

-from mast foot to cleat at cuddy edge

When loosened, it's lightly cleated so as not to get in the way with the other spaghetti tangle. When I want to use it, I just pull it to get the mast up a bit, then cleat it.

Carlos

[gosailing]

Excellent idea Carlos. I have never had my Daysailor sail up - just bought the boat and doing work on it. I was not sure how much a topping lift would interfer with the main but your idea sounds great - can adjust as you please - plus not hassle of running and clipping a line back and forth.

Les

[pnichols]

gosailing - I will state up front that I am not a big fan of topping lifts on small boats. More stuff to get messed up and more weight.

I personally just don't see the need for them like you do on a large yacht. On large yachts they are there to support the weight of a heavy boom and mainsail. I have a 40 footer and there is no way I would be without a topping lift.

Having said that, if you want to keep the boom up when the main is down, why don't you just use the main halyard? That is what I do on the boat I race on and it is a 27 footer.

Just a thought.

Paul

[gosailing]

Thanks Paul, that provides me with an additional ideal to consider.

Les

[calden]

Paul is right in that a topping lift seems like overkill on a DS.

I didn't have one for months, and put one on after getting tired of the boom going "boom" on the transom for the umpteenth time. Despite having my haul-out routine down to an art, I seemed to always forget that the boom was held up only through the mainsail, and even when I thought about it all, and remembered to put the mast crutch in, sometimes the boom would fall off the crutch and still hit the transom.

The topping lift as I described it is simply part of the rigging and does not get in the way.

Carlos

[Phill]

FWIW,

The lazy jack (boom hold up and sail lowering guide) idea is a good one. I think especially for those only day sailing, and mooring. I once sailed a lake in Mass. that we had to moor, and getting the main down and flaked/rolled, while swinging by the bow in the wind, was a considerable challange for those not used to it. Having the boom stay elevated during the douse, would have been a real benefit. (if ya gotta do this, remember to raise the CB so that you dont entertain the shore birds with a capsize) ((please dont ask ))

FWIW,

When I bring my boat into a dock, first thing I do as soon as the bow is secured by my crew, is remove the rudder. While back there, second I pull the boat cushion (throwable Type IV) out from under the aft deck, where I store it, and place in on the rear deck. That way when I lower the Main, I can guide the boom end to a safe landing as the halyard is played out.

Just another highly(?) valuable tip.... about $.02 worth

phill