Thwart repair

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Re: Thwart repair

Postby tomodda » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:55 pm

Cliff:

I measured the thickness of my original mahagony seats, yup 7/8 inch. How's your project coming along? I'm still struggling with cleats and assorted competing projects.

Tom
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Re: Thwart repair

Postby GreenLake » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:11 pm

tomodda wrote:Well, as long as we're picking nits (my favorite game!),

Miriam-Webster:

cleat noun
\ ˈklēt \
Definition of cleat (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : a wedge-shaped piece fastened to or projecting from something and serving as a support or check
b : a wooden or metal fitting usually with two projecting horns around which a rope may be made fast
2a : a strip fastened across something to give strength or hold in position

...

OK, this nit is thoroughly picked! In reality, they are pretty much interchangeable terms.


On a wooden boat, that actually has frames, a stringer, running horizontally, would tie them together; my understanding was that for fiberglass boats such terminology usage was effectively "by analogy". Therefore, any long strip or reinforcement placed against the hull and running longitudinally would also be called a stringer.

On a wooden boat, if you had (usually several) stringers and used one of them to also attach a seat or thwart, it would still be called a stringer.

I checked with the Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea, which is normally an excellent reference to nautical usage, and found this:

  1. piece of wood or metal with two arms placed at convenient stations on board ship, or on a yacht, to which ropes or falls can be made fast by taking two or three turns under and over the arms.
  2. Small wedges of elm or oak fastened to the yards of square-rigged sailing ships to prevent ropes or the earings of the sails from slipping off the yard. See also thumb cleat.
From: cleat in The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea


Notice the focus on the "small wedge" aspect for the second meaning, but that like the horn cleat, these also are used with ropes. Now, thinking over this, I might agree that this usage may allow expansion to a triangular support that's smaller than a bracket. For example, if the thwarts were supported at their hull end by a triangular piece of wood no longer than their width. (In wooden boat building, where you need to extensively shape most parts anyway, I can see someone taking the time to make such a piece a true o partial wedge to accommodate the angle of the hull while presenting a flat surface to support a thwart).

There may be other terms for short pieces of wood that act as supports to seats or shelves on board, but I've not been able to find any. Many online dictionaries are rather hopeless (e.g. cleat only being known in the context of shoes...).

However, if I understand your description correctly, the seats are supported by a continuous piece of wood 1x1/5" running the length of the seat. I would definitely tend to call that a stringer, even if in a fiberglass boat there's no need to tie frames together.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Thwart repair

Postby tomodda » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:23 pm

GL:

I think this is a case of "You say potato, I say potah-to." Anyway, thinking about it, I'm used to calling these bits of wood "cleats" because that's what what I've read them as when I was building plywood boats - the wood strips that you add to bulkheads so that you have a place to screw n' glue the hull panels. Too many epoxy fumes... :)

In other news, no epoxy involved, I've installed my new thwarts and am working on new seats. As usual, everything is taking twice as long as I thought it would. I'm trying to go for a "show-room" finish and 1/8" tolerances, so I'm cutting templates, routing nice bull-noses, etc. How to complicate something simple! I'm usually all about a "work-boat" finish - as long as it doesn't get me drown'd, I'm happy. Of course, the continued hot, humid, WINDLESS weather we've been having in Central North Carolina means that I have time to be fussy about finish, may as well enjoy the process.

Cliff:

How are your seats going? Did you build new supports yet? I'm still mulling over what I'm going to do with mine, will finish the seats first then figure it out.

Tom
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Re: Thwart repair

Postby Cliff » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:15 pm

Tom

Attached is a pic of the seat/thwart bottom: one w/o the tie plate and one with the plate. I believe the 5 large through holes were original by O'Day for the connection. You can see the many wood screw holes that were drilled for the door hinge type connections. I trust that the new bracket with through bolts will work better.
10-18 S & T wo bracket.JPG
10-18 S & T wo bracket.JPG (28.91 KiB) Viewed 1102 times

10-18 S&T w bracket.JPG
10-18 S&T w bracket.JPG (27.94 KiB) Viewed 1102 times


Also attached is a shot of the new seat next to the original seat. I think the original seat material is not mahogany since that is not as strong as say teak or ash. Plus a plank that wide in mahogany would be very expensive. I'll try to use the old seat material for other purposes.
10-19 Seats old & new.JPG
10-19 Seats old & new.JPG (26.33 KiB) Viewed 1102 times


I 'm not sure how the ash seat will work out w/o intermediate support. I see no sign that there was such support on my old seats. If I need the more support between the thwart and stern rail this can be added later. I would be curious if you have any detailed shots of those supports (cleats).

Cliff
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Re: Thwart repair

Postby tomodda » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:15 am

Hi Cliff!

Apologies for the delay on responding. I've got some detail shots of my original seat supports below. One semantic note - my "cleats" are simply the 1"x1.5" 7-foot long strip of wood screwed to the side and aft bulkheads (flotation tank walls) to hold up the outer edge of the seat and thwarts.

Anyway:

Brackets-800x600.jpg
Seat Brackets
Brackets-800x600.jpg (66.97 KiB) Viewed 1085 times


The metal rail is for an under-seat storage drawer.

IMG_20180929_131610-800x600.jpg
Seat Brackets 2
IMG_20180929_131610-800x600.jpg (131.91 KiB) Viewed 1085 times


The brackets were held in place by wood strips (cleats!) on either side. Cleats and Bracket were glued and screwed to the underside of the seats. The brackets are 7/8 inch thick, about 10 inches wide (fore bracket) and 8 inches (aft bracket), and vary in height. The fore bracket is 10" high at the front (actually more amidships once installed in the hull) and 8"ish at the back (outboard). The aft bracket is 8"ish and 6"ish. I can remeasure if you want, but you're better off making a template for your own boat, especially because these brackets also follow the curve of the hull.

Let me know if any way I can help. I took apart my seats to use as a template/jig for cutting out the curves in my new seats - it took multiple passes with a borrowed router. But I can still take measurements, trace and upload templates for you, whatever you need.

For what it's worth, I finally finished my new seats and they are hold up rather well by just the bulkhead cleats and the steel plates connecting them to the thwarts. In other words, it's supported on 3 sides and they don't flex in the middle when I sit there. Still think that one support bracket in the middle would be a good idea, I need to sail some and see.

Tom
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Re: Thwart repair

Postby Cliff » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:13 pm

Hello Tom

Great shots of the seat brackets—my boat seats were supported just the way your seats are now. I had no intermediate brackets. This worked well when we first bought the boat 2nd hand (1974). Since then I’ve gained a little weight and the seats may have been let to weather a bit too much. Anyways I’m hoping that the new seats will work w/o a bracket but if needed, it can be added later.

I’ll want to keep your bracket and cleat picture as a design template for any future support. I bet you are one of very few who may have this feature.

Live long and prosper
Cliff
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