Here I go again.....

[JACK FLASH]

So I sold my last daysailer about 6 years ago. Now with young children I have decided to get another one. I purchased a late 60's or 1970 Daysailer I a week ago and have begun the restoration processes. Most of the issues appear to be cosmetic except for two biggies. The first and easy issue is the transom has rotted out, so there will be some recoring going on back there. The biggesst issue I did not discover until this past weekend. I was removing the rub rail (I was going to replace it) and due to the age alot of the plastic channel that it locks on started to crack and break. No big deal I thought. That can be replaced. Underneath that plastic how ever was a new challenge. The hull/deck joint is failing, almost the entire perimeter of the boat boat. So I spen the day cutting the 180 staples that hold our Daysailers together. Admittedly it will be easier to refinish the inside with the deck off. Once ready I will reattach the deck with 3M 5200 and stainless rivets every 12 inches except at the bow and where the chain plates are. I will put them ever four inches in those higher stress points. Fun fun! I will post more updates and some photos soon.

[Skippa]

Jack,
Welcome back, Dont be in a big rush to tackle this major repair. There are many "experts" available on this site which I am not one. 5200 may not be your best option for this repair. I am sure others will chime in by days end.
It appears that you are no stranger to working on the DS so you have that going for you.
Best of luck with the restoration.
Kevin

[GreenLake]

Let's review what we've learned about 3M 5200 from reading to many discussions on the web.
1) It bonds like crazy
2) The bond will fail under steady load
3) Will need to be cut with a wire to remove
4) The big guys use a different compound to bed decks

Now, the hull-deck joint is something that should last the lifetime of the boat. If backed up with enough rivets for places where steady loads might otherwise pull apart the joint, I can't immediately come up with a reason against. The way the hull-deck joint is configured, if separation is ever necessary it should be possible to get a wire in there for cutting.

I don't know why 3M 5200 isn't standard for hull-deck joints on big boats, I do know that they use different products. But without knowing their reasons it's tough to learn from their practices.

On my DS1 at least the chain plates are held not (entirely) by the deck, but they are bolted through the hull as well. If that's not the case with this boat, I'd make sure that they are reinforced that way.

Also, some DS have reported hull - deck joint failure at the stemhead. The Easy fix is to tie the stemhead fixture to the bolt for the bow eye.

Another area to reinforce would be the bottom of the foredeck. With the deck off the hull and turned upside down, it's easy to get to that part and to add some reinforcements. On older DS there's usually a 1x4 that's kind of laminated from below. The laminate may have failed, or the wood may have dry rot. Check and redo, or replace with some laminate in the shape of a U channel (laid up over foam, or a cardboard tube). Details are elsewhere on this forum.

Finally, I would use the occasion to replace the carlins and brackets. These are the pieces of wood (approx 2"x2") underneath the narrow side decks and into which the nice wooden coamings are screwed. They are usually held in place by some minimal amount of laminate.

They do tend to suffer from dry rot. Get them out, replace them with fresh wood nicely coated on all 6 sides in epoxy (also coat all screw holes after drilling them.). Give the whole setup one or two layers of glass cloth as before.

Also in the same location you'll find a few plywood brackets that hold the deck up. Redo them in fresh wood, coat in epoxy and then paint (over the remaining lifetime of the boat even those locations will get UV exposure, so you need to cover any epoxy).

That should do it for the kind of "wish I had gotten around to this while I had the deck separated" projects.

Good luck.

[JACK FLASH]

GreenLake,

Your recomendations are spot on. I already saw the plywood brackets were delaminating and planned to replace them. I figured the backing for the wood coming was probably going to be in the same shape. I read about the stemhead seperation issues but I thought that issue appeared to be limited to the Daysailer II, needless to say, it will be reinforced.

As for the chainplate they do bolt through the sides of the hull.

[GreenLake]

It just occurred to me, that, with the deck off, the hull would probably benefit from being supported extra well - especially if you intend to step inside.

One other thing that would require fewer contortions with the deck off, would be installing an inspection port in the forward bulkhead - to remove, and replace any soggy foam with better flotation. (unless the previous owner did that). You may have known about that from your previous boat, anyway.

With that, you probably covered all the bases as far as the DS is concerned.

Rub-rail replacement is on my list, wonder what I will find about the state of the hull - deck joint (except that the previous owner seems to have applied fiberglass on the inside, connecting deck and hull, at least under the forepeak. I take it, that was not the case for your boat?

[JACK FLASH]

I plan to do a few task with the deck off. The removal of the foam under the seats is on that list, along with deck reinforcements you mentioned earlier. I am also planning to add a string or two to the sides of the hull up front in the cabin area. I will also do all of the prep and paint work that is either in the hull or on the underside of the deck. Once the deck is reattached I will do the prep work on the deck surface but will stop short of finish coats until the hull is completed.
As for the additional fiberglass you ask about I don't see it along the sides. I can't honestly tell you that I have crawled up to the front yet to see whats there. As a matter of fact I have not even been in the boat as of yet.

[GreenLake]

There's some evidence in my boat of fiberglass that seems to have been applied by an owner, rather than at the factory. In other places, I've seen "sloppy" glass work in "hidden" locations for which I don't think I can blame a previous owner. Because of that, I'm not sure whether the glass across the hull-deck joint is original or an attempt to prevent the hull-deck separation at the forepeak. (If I recall, it's all in front of the bulkhead, so not visible unless you crawl in).

If present, you'll probably need to hacksaw through it to get your deck off completely.

Anyway, can't wait to see photos.

[K.C. Walker]

Welcome Jack!

Wow, this is the first time I've heard of anybody removing the deck, I didn't even know it was feasible. I think the deck separation at the stem head is a very rare occurrence. I had guessed those were Monday morning or late Friday boats. My boat is a 74 and there is no evidence of ever having had the brackets under the side decks. So, I guess not all the daysailers had them.

As you proceed through the process of removing the deck and your repairs, I sure hope you take pictures and post them. I will be most interested.

[JACK FLASH]

Well I am changing tacks now. I have decided against complete removal of the deck for a couple of reasons. The biggest issue is the motor well in the back. It is part of the deck mold and was also plastered into the transom. Second reason is just the amount of work involved.
I took a core sample of the wood under the behind the seat backs and was pleased to see in dry and in good shape. So the new plan is as follows.
1. Remove all of the paint one of the previous owners applied to the deck and cockpit.
2. Structural reinforcements/repairs--This includes replacing the two plywood braces on each side behind the seat, removal of the infamous soggy foam under the seats, and adding ribs to either side in cuddy area where these boats are notorious for "oil canning", and finally rebuilding of the hull to deck joint. Oh and rebuilding of the rotted core in the transom which I haven't decided how I am going to tackle yet.
As for the deck/hull joint I am now on the fence about 5200 or an epoxy thickened with collidasilica. Either way I will epoxy the two together and clamp it with ALOT of c-clamps until it cures. I will then 5200 the new plastic rub rail channel that the rubber rub rail attaches two. Once cured I will drill holes and put a mechanical fastener every six inches or so. I have been debating if I was going to do this with rivets, wire, or staples, which was what Oday used. I have decided for ease and reduced cost I am going to use barrel nuts and screws. The rivets are probably really the best way to go but blind rivets are not an option (the rub rail has to be able to slide on over them) which leaves closed rivets. Easy enough to do but you have to buy a 600 dollar riveter.....no thanks.

Check back here for updates. I will keep a chronicle of my progress in this thread for all who are bored enough to read it.
As for pictures I have a few. If someone can explain how to post them here I would be more than happy to share. Sorry I good with boats, not so much with computers.

[JACK FLASH]

Oh I forgot to mention with clutter and dirt removed I found the hull tag. Looks like sail number 2117 and HIN 11906. Based on what I have found on the site that would make her a 68 or 69.

[JACK FLASH]

No race is raced with only one tack. Weighing the options and work loads I have decided to go forward with the complete deck to hull seperation. This weekend was full of finessing the joint apart and was succsefully completed with out incident. I will tell you that this project is not for the faint of heart. The deck is still resting on the hull until I can enlist some help to pick it up and move it into the garage but it is no longer attached. Once the deck is removed I will snap some photos and hopefully figure out how to include them here with my post.

[GreenLake]

I took a core sample of the wood under the behind the seat backs and was pleased to see in dry and in good shape.

If the wood (carlins) is in good shape I suggest you read up on something like SystemThree's EndRot kit. That's a nice method to keep wood from rotting - I know yours has lasted this long, but you never know whether you are maintaining it the same way the PO did. Perhaps you regularly bury the rail, or your boat is stored where moisture condenses, or, or.

2. Structural reinforcements... adding ribs to either side in cuddy area where these boats are notorious for "oil canning", and finally rebuilding of the hull to deck joint. Oh and rebuilding of the rotted core in the transom which I haven't decided how I am going to tackle yet.

For the ribs, I'm curious how you plan to do them. We've had long discussions here, as you probably found out.

For the transom. With the deck removed, can't you use something like a Fein multimaster or cutting wheel to slice off the laminate on the inside? I'd try the bottom half first, expose the wood and see how far the rot has spread upwards. You may not have to replace the whole thing.

I would apply a borax solution - part of the kit I mentioned - to the exposed edge of the old wood. Even if you cut away to where it looks sound, you may have the first tendrils and this would put a stop to them.

As for the deck/hull joint I am now on the fence about 5200 or an epoxy thickened with collidasilica. Either way I will epoxy the two together and clamp it with ALOT of c-clamps until it cures.

If you use 5200, I would add a glass tab on the inside between deck and hull. (Mainly in the forepeak).

I will then 5200 the new plastic rub rail channel that the rubber rub rail attaches to.

I would not use 5200 for that. If the PO had done that, you'd be cursing him now. Rub-rails need occasional replacement, and you should plan on a bond that can be removed, not a permanent one like you get with 5200.

Once cured I will drill holes and put a mechanical fastener every six inches or so. I have been debating if I was going to do this with rivets, wire, or staples, which was what Oday used. I have decided for ease and reduced cost I am going to use barrel nuts and screws. The rivets are probably really the best way to go but blind rivets are not an option (the rub rail has to be able to slide on over them) which leaves closed rivets. Easy enough to do but you have to buy a 600 dollar riveter.....no thanks.

Are these to hold the rail, or to hold the deck to the hull?

As for pictures I have a few. If someone can explain how to post them here I would be more than happy to share. Sorry I good with boats, not so much with computers.

There's a lot of explanation in the "website info" part of the forum. Shoot me a PM (or ask a question in the thread on posting pictures) if there are some points that are still unclear.

[JACK FLASH]

If the wood (carlins) is in good shape I suggest you read up on something like SystemThree's EndRot kit. That's a nice method to keep wood from rotting - I know yours has lasted this long, but you never know whether you are maintaining it the same way the PO did. Perhaps you regularly bury the rail, or your boat is stored where moisture condenses, or, or.

At this point I am planning on removing the wood that runs along the cockpit sides and back. I will probably lay up foam core or similar product in lieu of the wood.

For the ribs, I'm curious how you plan to do them. We've had long discussions here, as you probably found out.

My plan is to use 1.5 inch PVC pipe. I am going to rip it in half with my table saw and attach two pieces to each side from the front of the seat to the bulkhead near the forpeak. My plan is to bond the pvc to the inside of the hull using epoxy, once cured I will lay up and vacuum bag over the pvc regular polyester resin mat, and roven woven.

For the transom. With the deck removed, can't you use something like a Fein multimaster or cutting wheel to slice off the laminate on the inside? I'd try the bottom half first, expose the wood and see how far the rot has spread upwards. You may not have to replace the whole thing.

My transom appears to have one board glassed in at the center line and about 8 inches wide. This board appears to have been glassed in after the fact as I can clearly see where the tabbing stops. My plan is to sand/grind the tabbing off and remove the board. I will then glass in a new board. I also am planning to glass in a board along the top of transom to aid in the reattachment of the deck and hull. The joint between the deck and hull at the transom is only a 1/4 inch thick.

If you use 5200, I would add a glass tab on the inside between deck and hull. (Mainly in the forepeak).

I plan to do that in a few places while the boat is upside down for the hull refinishing. In addition at the forpeak I will be connecting the chainplate with the bow eye via a turnbuckle to transfer the load to the hull versus it all being on the deck.

I would not use 5200 for that. If the PO had done that, you'd be cursing him now. Rub-rails need occasional replacement, and you should plan on a bond that can be removed, not a permanent one like you get with 5200.

To clarify I was going to use 5200 to attach the plastic rail that the rubber rail clamps on too. I was not going to use glue for the rub rail it self. From the factory the plastic underrail was stapled to the hull.

Are these to hold the rail, or to hold the deck to the hull?

The 5200 will be the primary fastener for the joint. I feel there still needs to be a secondary fastner as well. The factory used large staples. Seeing as I don't own an industrial sized stapler I am looking for an alternative method. THe fastener idea looks to be a bust as it might be too thick for the rub rail to slide over. I am considering using wire and weaved in out along the legnth of the hull. Regardless there needs to be something besides 5200. For now, the jury is still out.

There's a lot of explanation in the "website info" part of the forum. Shoot me a PM (or ask a question in the thread on posting pictures) if there are some points that are still unclear.

Thank you for the pointer. Looks pretty straight forward. When I get home to my laptop I will upload and post some photos of the boat. The images with the deck off will have to wait a few days once we lift the deck and set it aside.

[GreenLake]

If you use epoxy for the hull/deck joint, I would be surprised if you would need additional fasteners. (Assuming you did good prep - rough sanding and removal of all oil/ wax) With extra tabbing at key stress points, you'd be doubly secure. (And I'm sure you know about not clamping the joint so hard that you starve it).

You might find that having some fasteners will help align the boat for gluing. I wonder whether you could take a page from the stitch and glue construction method. You could drill at 6 inches, insert copper wire which you twist together around the outside of the joint. That pulls the joint together, and you may not need as many clamps. After the joint has cured, you snip/file the wires flush.

My contention is that you don't need them for structural reasons if you use epoxy to glue. If you use 5200, I think the same would hold, but then you'd want more glass tabs.

I could imagine scenarios where you might need to replace the plastic rail. So I would not use 5200 on it. (Collision damage is an example). 3M has several compounds in the 4xxx series which bond reasonably but.

I would not use polyester resin for any lamination, but epoxy. Epoxy bonds more securely to cured polyester (which is what you are bonding to) and it doesn't shrink like polyester during the cure.

If you use a half-tube for your stringers, I'd like to suggest that you leave a hole at the lowest point. Guaranteeing that there'll never be any cracks is tricky and you're better off in that case, if any water can drain. If you use a foam blank that would be less of an issue, assuming the foam is closed cell.

[JACK FLASH]

I considered using epoxy for the bond. My reason for using 5200 is because you have ALOT of working time. In our ambient temps here I would only have a few minutes if working with epoxy.

Okay, here goes my attempt to post some photos, lets see what happens.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77100295@N02/6913629033/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77100295@N02/6913627169/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77100295@N02/6913627867/in/photostream

The last one is clearly showing the hull/deck seperation. All I had done at that point was remove the rub rail.