Here I go again.....

[JACK FLASH]

The de-formation or hogging of the bottom of your boat sounds like what I had. When I removed my stringers some of that hogging was relieved. Of course I was suspending my boat from the gunwales so there was no weight on it in the bilge area. After coring, I still had to do a lot of fairing and filling on the bottom with lightweight filler especially forward of the transom. I think the boat is most susceptible to softening in the "planing surface", that is the flat hull section between the seats. That's where the boat rides on trailers and it is also the flattest and least supported part of the hull. Judging by the condition of your boat I would have to guess that the bottom is pretty soft.

I'm going to suggest that cedar is not a good wood for the purpose of carlins. The purpose of these is structural, i.e. to hold fasteners and to stiffen the side deck. Being that cedar is only a little better than balsa wood as a core for compressive strength even going with the through fasteners, fender washers, and nuts on the backside, it's still not going to be as good as something like plywood or hardwood. You would need to be very careful not to over torque your fasteners or you would risk de-laminating your glass on the backside. If you went with a three-quarter inch plywood and totally encapsulated it with epoxy you wouldn't need glass laminate on the outside, therefore saving that weight. I would guess that you would come out stronger and lighter (possibly the same weight), and it would hold fasteners much better. You would eliminate the need for through bolting.

Just some random Monday thoughts.

I appreciate the feed back. I have built a cradle to support the boat at the transom off of the trailer. I am hoping some of the deformation will go away when I grind out the stringers.

As for the cedar in the carlins your points are valid but I respectfully disagree with the over all assesment. The wood in the carlins cannot be to big of a load as the original woods is made up of several pieces about six inches long each. The biaxel glass in both a vertical orientation as between the pieces and on a horizontal axis in the final covering will be the structural part of the carlins. The cedar at this point is nothing more than a core and a form for the glass lay up. Cost and accessibility is the only reason I am using the cedar versus a traditional foam core. I am pretty sure that plywood encapsulated in glass would be heavier than the current proposed schedule. Remember the carlines are 1.5 inches thick by 1.5 inches tall except in the transom where they are slightly smaller.

I also discovered that when I flip the hull I will be having some fun with the centerboard. The more I lift the hull up the more the board comes down, but the handle ain't moving so I am going to have to assume the hole in the board has wallowed out or has seperated from the board.

This weekend will be a busy one. I want to get the underside of the deck sanded, the interior of the hull sanded, the carlins, stringers, and the rotted transom grounded out, and all of the foam removed. I am hopeing to be laying in stringers and carlines in two weeks. During the stringer construction I will use some furing strips from side to side clampped to the hull joint to ensure the hull stays in shape (I took measurements before disassembly). The general plan is to do the inside, flip the deck and do the top of the deck, reattach the deck to the hull and flip the whole thing and do the hull and centerboard. There is no doubt that both the hull and the deck are in a more fragile state while seperated so I do not want to risk damage to the hull flipping with the deck off.

[K.C. Walker]

Jack,

Just to clarify, I did not say to encapsulate 1.5 x 1.5" plywood in glass. I said to encapsulate three-quarter inch plywood in epoxy, not epoxy glass. This would be for the purpose as strong or stronger and also lighter as it is half the dimension and not carrying the epoxy glass weight. Of course, this is just a suggestion.

If you want your fasteners to be strong and resistant to crushing a core you can do as West System prescribes for fasteners through a core.

[GreenLake]

Do you know if there is foam in the front tank too?

There is, I replaced mine, but with non-porous insulation foam - the blue or pink stuff.

[GreenLake]

(More) on carlins:

The side decks form the middle part of a horizontal I beam. The top "-" of the I (inside when it's laid flat) is formed by the coamings, and the bottom "-" (outside) by the side of the hull. (by "-" I mean the little feet on the letter I).

This beam resists bending of the rubrail in the in-out direction (bowing out). The strength required by the carlins is effectively that of connecting the coamings to the side deck. As Jack noted, the carlins aren't even single pieces of wood on his boat.

Laminating a beefy stringer over a cedar (or any other core) would appear to be overkill, as would continuous plywood/hardwood members. (However, other than a bit of weight or cost, there wouldn't seem to be any harm in overbuilding here.)

Inserting cloth half-way in the middle of any stringer is questionable for another reason. If it sits in the vertical plane, then it can't contribute to the bending stiffness in the in-out direction (horizontal plane) because in any beam there's practically no load in the middle. Strength in the middle is wasted). Stiffness in the vertical plane is not needed, because the coamings are so tall and so efficiently stiff in that direction. So the weight of that layer of glass tape can be saved under any circumstances.

Simply painting the carlins in epoxy resin (as K.C. suggests) might be enough protection for the wood (with a thin coat of UV-opaque paint, even spray paint, for additional UV cover for the epoxy). But I could see a single layer of cloth (not heavy bi-axial tape) as a reasonable compromise (after epoxy coating the wood.) I see the main purpose of doing this extra glass in supporting the load transfer from wood to side deck, so that it's not dependent solely on the glue joint wood/deck or the strength of the first layer of wood in contact with the deck.

Now, for crush resistance, the easiest is to drill out the holes for the screws to 3/4" and filling them with a sawdust/epoxy mixture. Then drilling the same holes again at the correct size for the bolts. That produces rather strong "channels" that will definitely not crush, and they will help transmit the loads well into the rest of the wood.

Well enough that something like red cedar could work? I tend to believe so, based on the reasoning I give above, but of course, that's not proof. Using epoxy coated plywood (marine grade, or at a minimum A/A exterior) wouldn't require all that effort and be sure to work.

[JACK FLASH]

Well I have done screwed up now. I was concerned about replacing the carlins while the deck was off. After having only done once side my concerns were apparently well founded. Adding the carlins has locked in the shape of the deck on the horizontal plane. When the deck is flipped it is not going to mate up with the hull properly in the stern quarters. I will have to undo the one side I have already done. I will also then remove the original carlins from the other side and stern section. I will wait though until the deck is reinstalled and the boat is flipped for the hull refinishing to install the new carlines. Fortunately aside from gluing into place, I have not glassed it in yet so removal will still suck, but it could have been alot worse.

[GreenLake]

Looks like you have discovered the reason why the factory put in segments. Or do I misunderstand your findings?

[JACK FLASH]

I suspect that when the factory installed the carlins the deck was probably still in the mold and therefore would have come out in the correct shape. I believe they put in as segments so as to not have to bend an 1.5 inch timber to the radius of the cockpit opening. Using segments was probably cheaper and faster than laying in multiple thinner pieces or using a steam box to get a full size piece to fit. At the end of the day Oday was no different than any other manufacturer, keep the cost as low as possible and build a decent product while doing it.
An interesting note from 1974 Daysailor II days. The centerboard was damaged and I had to replace it. I found that niether a new one from DR Marine or two used ones would fit in the case. I spoke to the guy at DR Marine (don't remember his name, its been years) and described the issue I was having. Before I told him what year the boat was he guessed it was a 74 or 75 because they had that issue at the factory due to plucking boats off of the mold before the glass was fully cured allowing it to sag in. Net result on that one was having a board customer built by Phil's Foils in Canada. My point is most things are done for monetary reasons. I am stoked to know what a difference in the stiffness the new carlins are going to make. Currently the side I haven't cut off yet still flexes, the side I replaced, and now have to remove is as stiff as concrete.

[GreenLake]

Thanks. Great background.

I'd be curious if the stiffness further increases with coamings added. My expectation would be that that's the case only if there's residual flexibility after the carlins are added.

For production boats, it's known that the coamings are needed (it's even in the class rules), hence my suspicion that your new carlins are stronger than the originals....

[JACK FLASH]

Well after an extended period of not being able to work on the boat I got after it this weekend. I sanded away on the cockpit and am almost done with removing the previous owners paint job and a most of the factory paint that was under that. One more good evening should see the cockpit completely stripped, the old stringers removed, and the foam removed.
After that the hull go into the garage for the stringer installation and transom core install. The deck will then move from the garage to the tent for the under side to be sanded.

[JACK FLASH]

Well after a little break I got back on my project last weekend. Finally finished sanding all the paint from the interior of the boat. I still have not done the seats or forward bulkhead but I am going to use stripper on those to preserve the surface texture. After that I will cut access holes to remove the sure to be water logged foam.

[JACK FLASH]

So we got rid of the kids for the weekend and I found I had time to get after the Oday again. I had already finished grinding away the distressed paint from the interior and was left with the two benches, the forward tank, and a few places a grinder couldn't fit on the keelsen and centerboard trunk. I didn't want to use the grinder on the smooth finished surfaces of the benches and forward tank because the smooth finish would have been lost. A finish sander would do the trick but it would take hours if not days to complete. I started to consider options for stripping a couple of months ago. My initial desire was to soda blast it, but that would have been pretty costly. Sand blasting is cheap as a do-it-yourself project, but I fear it would have been to agressive of a medium. Chemical stripping made the most sense but you are left with two basic types. The first is based on methylene chloride and is sure to remove the paint but great care must be taken as it will eat gelcoat, and eventually fiberglass if left on too long. The odor and clean up are concerns as well. The safer option is an enviromentally freindly chemical stripper which is non caustic. I was very skeptical about the so called enviromentally freindly safe for gelcoat stripper. I purchased the smallest container for way too much money at West Marine to do a few test samples. I chose a small patch on the hull, the non skid, and the smooth finished deck. Due to my impatience I only left it on the surface for 45 minutes, the directions say 4 to 24 hours. The results were somewhat questionable but I decided it was better than sanding for days and maybe if I left it on like the directions said, I would get better results. The product I chose to use is the marine version of Ready Strip made by a company called Back to Nature. I did a little research on the internet and found out that Home Depot was the cheapest place to get the stuff. Apparently they didn't get the memo that the word Marine added to the title should double or tripple the price. But before you head to your local Home Depot, it is only availabe from their online store.
So today I blobbed on copious amount of the stuff to every paint surface on the inside of the hull. There were also a few places on the keelson and centerboard trunk where a grinder wouldn't fit that I dobbed it on to as well. I then went inside and watched a chick flick with my wife. I can't tell you what movie it was, as it turned out to be a chick flick and a man nap. Two hours later I went outside for a smoke and to see what the boat looked like. The paint was bubbling up in great form and I became very excited at the site of the paint giving up its grip. I used a paint scrapper for the removal process and was very very happy with the rusults. On the testured sides I couldn't hit with the grinder I used a stiff bristle brush and found it worked well. I began to rinse the stuff off using the hose and found that the paint would also come off with decent water pressure as well. Time to break out the pressure washer. Oh was it cool. I liken the process to what I think a chemical peel would be like in plastic surgery. The paint was nearly gone except in a few locations and along the rough edges where the tank and benches meet the hull. I had not applied any stripper there so it was to be expected. After the hull dried I went back and applied stripper to all the crevices I had not hit before and to the few spots that were not giving up on the first go around. A couple hours later I went back this time straight to the pressure washer. All I can say is the hull is clean on the inside.
Scroll down for a pictures of the days progress. The next step is going to be grinding out the rotted transom and extracting the sure to be soggy foam from the front tank and seat areas. The hull will then move into the garage for installation of the new for/aft stringers and the new transom. During this time the deck will move from the garage into the tent for its "chemical peel". Once done I will paint the interior of the hull and the underside of the deck. Than it will be time to remarry the deck to its long lost hull. A big flip for refinishing the hull, and than a big flip back to right side up to paint the deck. Than it will be to the part I like the most. Fitting out the boat with new hardware, blocks, rigging, line, etc. I am also finding my day job to be extra rewarding so I am starting to see a new Proctor tapered mast in the boats future.
Any ways probably will be a week or two before more work happens on the boat. In the mean time enjoy the pics below and let me know if you have any questions.

[JACK FLASH]

Well the racing season is now over, the turkey has been eaten, and the remains turned to soup so now I can turn my focus back to my O'day. This past weekend I cleaned out the garage and moved the hull there for the stringer installation. I also stripped the paint of the topsides of the deck. And lastly I removed the rotted what was left of it wood encapsulated in the transom. This week I hope to get the stringers tabbed into place so that next weekend I can begin glassing them in. For a core I have decided to use PVC pipe that I ripped in half with the table saw. I was worried about how the cut would come out thinking the pipe might break in chunks versus getting a nice clean cut. As it turns out the stuff ripps just fine. I also cutout my pieces of fiberglass along with the peel ply and batting for the vacuum bagging of the stringers. I chose the PVC pipe for two reasons. The first of course is that it will never rot. The second is that I thing the cemicircle shape once made rigid by the fiberglass will offer a stiffer stringer than the traditional rectangular wood.
I am going to rebuild the transom using marine plywood. In addition to the factory peice that is only about a foot wide in the center of the transom, I will also glass in a piece running from side to side along the top to give the deck a little meat to attach to when it is reinstalled as the transom is only about a 1/4 of inch wide.

I would say more to come soon, but I know the reality is I won't post again for awhile because I am lazy. In the meantime, happy holidays!

[JACK FLASH]

What a big week. I have completed the installation of the port stringer. Let me just say it was fun, scary, and all things inbetween. I have done quite a bit of fiberglass repairs so working with glass was nothing new. This was however, the first time to incorporate vacuum bagging into my technique. Now most sensible people would do a small project first before trying something new on a large scale such as 12 foot long section eight inches wide with three layers of various types of glass. But I am a little more all or nothing kind of guy and I just went at it. I planned my escapade to time with a cold front that had come in this week so that I would have some added pot life and working time on the project before the epoxy kicked off. All and all it was a success but here a few things I learned.

1. You may have cleaned the surface area where the fiberglass will be added, but you must also clean the surrounding are where the mastic will be applied for the vacuum bag. This issue was overcome with a roll of masking tape but it was stressful not seeing the back suck down like I thought it should.
2. 6 mils is over kill for the bag. It was a little hard to work with and I think a little hard for the pump to crush the bag at the folds. I am going to use 3 mil on the starboard side.
3. Be sure when putting down the backer mat, that there is peel ply, even if its not on the part itself as resin tends to squeeze outward during the compression.

I'll try to post some pics tonight. I am going to tab in the starboard stringer tonight so I can glass it in tomorrow night. It should be noted that when standing in the boat, I cannot move the port floor at all. I used to be able to get it to flex even before I ground out the old stringers. The floor really moved alot with no stringers. I was even scared and careful to stay flat footed and not use my knees as I was worried that to much localized weight would cause a structural failure.