Shakedown Cruise

Topics primarily or specifically about the DS1. Many topics are of general interest, so please use forum sections on Rigging, Sails, etc. where appropriate.

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Shakedown Cruise

Postby triathjohn » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:32 pm

My maiden voyage. Finally after 10 months of ownership I got to sail my keel-stepped mast, DS1 “Quiksilver” (not my name) last Saturday on the edge of Lake Erie. What an ordeal! After rigging and launching we had to recover and de-rig when we discovered that we lost the end of the main halyard up into the base of the mast! We removed the mast base and could not see the halyard even with a flashlight. We slowly pulled the jib halyard, spinnaker halyard, and spinnaker topping lift line through the mast while we pushed the mail halyard wire into the mast from the top. Eventually we were able to snag the errant halyard. The knot in the end of the line had pulled through the sheave at the base of the mast. The whole ordeal took about 1 ½ hours.
OK so now we are back on the water and the mail sail won’t raise all the way up. It seems to be about 3 inches from the top. It turns out that the wire loop at the end of the wire part of the halyard had come off the sheave and was stuck along side of the sheave. We didn’t figure out what was wrong until later when we returned to land and couldn’t drop the main. In the meantime we sailed with a Cunningham kind of set up to tighten the luff.
OMG, That boat is fast!! We had a wonderful hour-and-a-half sail. I’m looking forward to much more sailing before the weather turns too bad. We are taking the boat to the Chautauqua Institute for a weeks vacation the first week of September. But first I have to figure out why the halyard connection wire is getting caught between the sheaves.
If anyone has any ideas…
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Postby adam aunins » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:06 am

Glad tyo hear you had a good time (for the most part). One of the first things I did when I got my boat was to go to all rope halyards. They are far easyer to work with, coil and stow.
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Postby triathjohn » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:55 am

adam aunins wrote:Glad tyo hear you had a good time (for the most part). One of the first things I did when I got my boat was to go to all rope halyards. They are far easyer to work with, coil and stow.


So you replaced the wire part and now have all rope. I'm glad to hear that. I kind of thought about that but didn't know if it was alright to do. I like it!
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Postby GreenLake » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:52 am

With modern ropes you can get the same low-stretch as with wire, for a fraction of the weight.

I've been experimenting with Amsteel halyards this season. I spliced a tail of cheap double braid at the end, so I would have something less slippery to pull on.

Splicing is rather easy if you follow the instructions for the "halyard splice" on http://L-36.com.

For the Jib halyard, I also put a special eye splice at the end that can open and shut (the size of the eye can be made very small), and which hooks around a toggle tied to the sail. That means, the connection is just as easy as with a shackle, but I don't have to have a metal thimble and shackle. (That technique is also described on that website).

For the main, I could have don the same thing, but experience has taught me that I'll lose my halyard up the mast if I don't have the "counterweight" from the shackle.
Last edited by GreenLake on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby dbk0630 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:06 pm

When I got my DS2 I replaced the rope&wire halyards for both jib and main with rope haylards. I ordered them from D&R Marine... and they came complete with the shackles attached. They've worked great for me. Mine have never been set up to run through the mast though.

I also ended up replacing the sheaves at the top of the mast, which had ceased up. I drilled out the old rivets and replaced them with 1" clevis pins and rings... and the new sheaves have worked fine.
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Postby GreenLake » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:14 pm

+1 on the sheaves.
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Postby ChrisB » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:16 am

+ 2 on all rope halyards. Low stretch dacron works just fine for me. I have not had the need to replace the sheaves yet.
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Postby triathjohn » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:48 pm

I was thinking of switching to snap shackles on the main and jib halyards, and the forestay and shrouds. Does anyone know what working load capacity I should look for?
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Postby triathjohn » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:06 pm

Bad news Greenlake. The web site http://l36.com/ seems to be out of business.
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Postby GreenLake » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:54 pm

My DS came with a 3" + snap hook for the the main halyard. Breaking strength for something like that is > 1,500 lbs, so you get 1/5th or > 300lbs working load. Jib would be less, so you could probably go one size smaller.

I have snap shackles on another boat, and tend to not like them as much for halyards. They are harder to open with one hand (you need to pull on the ring to get the pin to slide out for it to open).

For shrouds and stays, the loads are higher, and, worse, the potential damage in case of failure greater (loss of mast). If you have clevis pins today, you could look into "quick pins" to get a quick disconnect for them, that would seem less risky a change.

As I mentioned, I've changed my jib halyard to have a "soft-shackle" or rope shackle built into the halyard itself. It hooks onto a toggle that's created from a short loop of rope with a diamond knot. That works really well and preserves the full strength of the halyard. Works best with something like Amsteel. (I had the link wrong it's L-36.com - I keep forgetting the "-").

To be precise, I used the basic setup from http://l-36.com/halyard_shackle.phpbut made the eye-splice like the one described here: http://l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php
Last edited by GreenLake on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GreenLake » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:59 pm

triathjohn wrote:Bad news Greenlake. The web site http://l36.com/ seems to be out of business.


I keep missing the hypen. It's http://L-36.com. And it's definitely up. (I've gone back and corrected that in a number of places.)
Last edited by GreenLake on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby seandwyer » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:01 am

+ 3 all rope halyards and clevis pin mounted sheaves. Once you mount them that way, you'll never need to drill rivets again - and I think the pins are far sturdier than the rivets could ever have been.

Also - concerning the wire / rope setup for the halyards: If you still have that setup, I'm willing to bet they are pretty stretched out by now. If they are as stretched as mine were (when I first purchased my '68) the halyard needed to be raised so far that wire was running inside the cheek blocks where they are mounted on the mast, just above the cuddy. The thin, cutting nature of the wire couldn't be good for the sheaves. I wonder if your problem had anything to do with the wire cutting into the sheave itself, or possible jumping the sheave entirely and running on the outside, thus binding between the block housing and the sheave. Just a thought

As for snap shackles - I have thought of doing the same with my forestay, but you should be able to just leave the shrouds attached all the time. No need to spend extra there. D&R has a a snap shackle type quick connect for the forestay--it may even be an option as a complete forestay upgrade. Oddly enough, I asked Rudy about it and he sort of talked me out of it--but I can't really remember why.

One more thing--if your halyards are that old, I bet you have the older, thinner diameter standing rigging. You may want to consider replacing everything with the thicker 1/8" stuff.
Sean
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Postby GreenLake » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:16 am

seandwyer wrote:...I think the pins are far sturdier than the rivets could ever have been.

not to mention harder and smoother. I did give them a dollop of Tef-Gel to insulate them from the surrounding aluminum.

seandwyer wrote:As for snap shackles - I have thought of doing the same with my forestay, but you should be able to just leave the shrouds attached all the time. No need to spend extra there. D&R has a a snap shackle type quick connect for the forestay--it may even be an option as a complete forestay upgrade. Oddly enough, I asked Rudy about it and he sort of talked me out of it--but I can't really remember why.


Wise man, that Rudy.

People with keel-stepped masts definitely can't leave shrouds connected when taking the mast out. I've gotten super quick with the rings on clevis pins, but "quick pins" would shave 3 minutes from the setup - at a small risk that they could be pushed out accidentally on the water. I would need to replace my rigging first, because the current setup uses 4mm pins (5/32" not 3/16") and you can't get quick pins that small.

You can't even get clevis pins that small in many places, so I had a tough time replacing a lost one - finally dug out a bill from the previous owner, went to the swaging shop he used, and they had a few mixed in with their 3/16s - the difference is really subtle and the guy at the shop had to use his calipers.
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Postby triathjohn » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:05 pm

Right now I have shackles with pins on everything, that I have to unscrew and the pins pull all the way out. So far I haven't dropped or lost a pin but it will certainly happen working with those small pins. Unscrewing and rescrewing those pins is a slooow process. Trying to line up those pins with the shackle, the 2 holes in the shroud adjusters, the deck plate and the other side of the shackle and get the screw threads without tension on the pins to get them startedstarted is a little tough. That's why I thought snapshackles would be much quicker and easier.
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Postby GreenLake » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:28 am

For halyards, snap shackles would be fine. But they are not the only alternative. For example, at the tack of my jib, I have a U shackle with a captive pin which locks with a simple 90 degree twist. No harder than using a snapshackle, and probably lighter and cheaper.

My forestay and shrouds have swaged fittings that end in a two-pronged fork. I place fork over chainplate or stemhead and push a pin through. Currently, I'm using clevis pins, but quick pins would work (they are the ones that have a little "ball" that prevents them from working loose.

Go check places like APS, they have literally dozens of different types of schackles and hooks. Ought to be able to find something that works.

Just allow for rather substantial working loads for anything that holds up shrouds.
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