Diamond Spreader Removal

[charsmith]

I have read several opinions on the forum stating that the diamond spreaders are not needed. What's the best way to remove them? Can I just drill out the rivits and leave those holes in the mast or should I remove something else?

Stephen

[GreenLake]

You should be able to just drill the heads of the rivets. (I haven't done this, but have thought about it). There's the issue whether you want your mast watertight (in case of capsize). That might be a reason to fill those holes. (You'd have to plug other holes as well, like around the mast top sheaves).

[K.C. Walker]

Drilling off the heads of rivets is pretty easy because the drillbit stays centered, if it's pop rivet. You can easily refill the holes with the same size rivet after you remove the hardware. If you want to make it watertight with pop rivets you need to put a sealer in the center hole, but it would hold the sealer much better than a blank whole.

If you've been sailing your boat with the diamond spreaders and you remove them you will find that your rig is more flexible, especially up top. You should notice that the rig is much more gust responsive and easier to manage in a blow. The rig will naturally flex and de-power the sail as a gust hits. It would be interesting if you would report back with your before and after the experience.

[Thomasjbrothersjr]

Just did I the same thing with the rivets. Drilled them out, moved the halyard block and refilled the holes with rivets. I didn't think to fill the center hole to keep it watertight. Great point!

T-Bone

[jdoorly]

Most fractional rigs are 7/8 (87%) and many are 3/4 (75%), the DS is closer to 45/64 (70%). That's a lot of unsupported mast, and no backstay!

I get how the mast would bend more without the diamonds but wouldn't the mainsail be flatter with the diamond stays (without using vang or cunningham and only using mainsheet)?

[K.C. Walker]

jdoorly,

That's interesting about the various fractional rigs. It seems like the 7/8 rig is used more in keel boats with back stays but I wonder how designers consider what fraction to use. It seems that most of the centerboard boats, that are sloop rigged, have a three-quarter or greater fraction, which would allow more control over mast bend without needing a back stay. Of course we have the Laser that is an unsupported mast with 75 ft.² of sail, and they seem to be able to control the draft of their sails pretty well.

To me, it would seem that the diamond spreaders would keep the draft in the sail up high, because it wouldn't allow the mast to bend thereby flattening the sail, open the leech, and allow it to twist out. It seems to me that if you did want to use diamond spreaders that you would want to have your sail cut flatter up top and fuller down low, because if you stiffened the upper section of the mast, most of your mast bending would happen down low.

Again back to the Laser, to get a more flexible upper mast, without the aid of the fractional rig, they use a two-piece mast with a skinnier top section. This allows a great amount of sail power adjustability.

[charsmith]

Unfortunately I have not sailed the vessel with the diamond spreaders as I just bought it a few weeks ago, so I won't be able to make a comparison.

Related (somewhat) question: I'm preparing to install new spreaders. Should I allow them to drape down during transport or install them so they are always extended? My bracket (below) doesn't have any real features that would cause them to remain extended, but if I drill the hole in my new DR spreaders in just the right place, I could butt it up to the bracket which would keep it mostly in place.


Also, the rivets for that bracket are slightly loose...is that a problem?

Thanks again!

[GreenLake]

You might want to go to a different type of spreader bracket. I think even D&R have them. They are more substantial. My DS has some that are like these and I've lost two spreaders because the hole through the end is too close to the edge and rips out. In fact, one of my spreaders has lasted for over a season now with a jury rig (I got tired of ordering new ones). The spreaders would break at the hole. The jury rig consists of the 'tongue' part of a cable tie pulled around the pin to hold the spreader in place by pushing the pin into what remained of the holes (now U shaped depressions). The tie is then taped to the spreader.

Most of the time, the rig is in compression, so the pin is firmly pressed into place anyway. The cable tie serves to retain the spreader when it is unloaded. Whether momentarily or longer while the boat is not rigged. I find it telling that such a jury rig has now outlasted one of the "real" spreaders in real world situation.

Whatever you do, don't impede the "hinging" of the spreader around the axle.

PS: and yes, fix those rivets - by fixing a better bracket!

[Thomasjbrothersjr]

If you are planning on having to buy new spreaders I would definitely take Mr. Lakes advice. You are going to have to drill out the old loose rivets anyway, so why not upgrade the whole system. It's going to be a real easy fix.

You are looking at about $34 / $68 for new hinged brackets and the upgraded spreader bars. I had a good conversation with Rudy down at his shop about these. He told us that with the old, rounded type of bar that people would go through a couple a year, for the very reason Mr. Lake pointed out, the hole being too close to the end. The upgraded bracket and bar he now sells for the DS is actually what was standard on the Mariner. Rudy believes so much in the upgrade that he talked me out of buying an extra spreader. Simply no need for it. This was just another example of how the DS was rigged too lightly for its use.

Don't forget the boots or some good tape at the ends as well.


T-Bone

[GreenLake]

Excellent info. Does Rudy have any guidance as to precise positioning, or is that obvious? Will the upgrade require one, two, or three new holes to be drilled, per bracket?

[Thomasjbrothersjr]

There are three holes to be drilled. The website suggests either using rivets or screws, I am sure you would need to drill and tap the mast for the appropriate sized screw. As for the placement, I already had them, just upgraded the arms. They were already drilled.

T-Bone

[Baysailer]

I think I can add some to what the uppers do or don't. I removed them quite a while ago but left the tangs and sockets in place and occasionally put them back into service. They are easy to take on or off since there's no real tension to them. I also tried out a floatation test with pool noodlesover the uppers. Looked stupid but it did work OK. You could use the sockets for navigational lights if you did any night sailing.

From my observations there is little if any difference at mid strength wind below, I'll guess about 12 Kts. I'm sure there is the weight aloft issues and disturbed airflow but from my view I couldn't tell the difference there. As the wind gets stronger there is a difference but I'll be honest I can't see any real falling off of the mast in a puff. I do have a straight mast though and if there is a good puff I'm probably not looking up. What I can see though is the affects when vang is on hard. Then you can definitely see the difference in the sails, especially the upper part and feel in the helm. So I would recommend removing them since they aren't needed as far as aI can see but certainly not required if you like them. The biggest affect to me is when it is not under sail and on the trailer. Anyone with the uppers still installed will attest that they always seem to be where you don't want them to be and will catch on anything. Probably makes stepping the mast a bit harder too but I didn't have issues there so it's minor at most.

Lastly, I have to agree that a good stiff support for the stays is way more important.

[charsmith]

Just what I needed to know! I already bought the HD spreaders from DR so I'll just order up the brackets and be good to go.