Spinnaker hardware set up questions

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Spinnaker hardware set up questions

Postby tedwardo » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:04 pm

I'm getting my DS1 ready for sailing and have 3 questions concerning spinnaker hardware that I'm hoping some experienced DaySailors can educate me on.
#1 - My mast has a spinnaker hallyard installed but there is no spinnaker topping lift. I am going to install one, but are there any suggestions out there as to what height above deck the strap eye for the topping lift block should be? I've searched the forums but have not seen that addressed.
#2 - The "mast eye" for the spinnaker pole is currently 28 inches above the deck. The Daysailer specs and measurements says the mast eye can be a maximum of 48 inches above the deck and that 2 are allowed. Would it be helpful to have a 2nd mast eye around 48 inches for performance or other reasons?
#3 - When setting up a spinnaker pole fore guy is it preferred to have a through deck fitting or a block or fairlead on on the deck?
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
DS-1 2677
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Re: Spinnaker hardware set up questions

Postby jeadstx » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:57 pm

I have installed spinnaker hardware as well, but I am unsure of the topping lift as well.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Spinnaker hardware set up questions

Postby GreenLake » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:19 pm

There are three possible design choices.
  1. Use lines that are independently cleated for both topping lift and foreguy
  2. Use a bungee for the topping lift
  3. Use a bungee for the foreguy
Of these choices, the first is common on large boats, but unnecessary for the DS.
On the latter two, there's a difference of opinion; I've made my choice, but I don't know whether there are any compelling arguments for or against it. It seems to work for me, but others report the same for their setup. The two solutions aren't equal, because the loads generated by the spinnaker aren't symmetric in the up/down direction.

The weight of the pole and the weight of the sail (in light airs) will push the pole down, while pressure in the sail will lift it. Therefore, to me, it seemed logical to use the static line as the foreguy, as it will not allow the pole to change angle when the wind increases. At the same time, the bungee only needs to be as strong as required to offset the weight of pole and sail. That seemed a reasonable approach, so I rigged the bungee as topping lift. As long as the bungee is strong enough to overcome the combined weight of sail and pole, this arrangement allows you to trim the pole precisely to any desired angle.

Others have rigged it the other way around. It would seem to me, that the effect would be that past a certain point the sail is allowed to rise on its own, with increased wind pressure, while stretching the bungee. (As a result, the pole cannot be trimmed to every angle, not unless the bungee is also adjustable). Perhaps that's a useful feature, but I haven't had anyone explain it to me in those terms. And it may be the case that this is of interest in different conditions than the ones I sail in. Because of local conditions, I find myself using the spinnaker most often in moderate to light winds, at the edge of its range of effective angles, that is, at a fairly broad reach, with the pole trimmed forward and down, sailing it almost like a gennaker.

I use a simple ring as fairlead for the foreguy, which works fine. The only mistake I made is to place it slightly off-center, with the effect that the foreguy tends to pull the pole away from the clew in some conditions. (So, wouldn't suggest to copy that part.) I cleat the foreguy on the cuddy top, actually, on the aft-facing edge of it. The bungee is attached to an eye-strap that's somewhere below the spreaders. Presumably about half-way between the ring and the forestay, but I'm not sure and do not have a way to do measurements. I strongly suspect that the precise placement isn't of supreme importance.

I experimented a bit until I came up with the right combination of bungee and line to give me a topping lift of desired elasticity and power. It needs to be able to stretch all the way to the lowest position the pole can be trimmed to, but you don't want it too soft around the horizontal position either. I know leave it attached to the mast permanently, and, when not in use, attach the free end with a shackle to the mast ring, from where I take it off to attach to the pole.

Unfortunately, I don't have the measurements for the location of the mast ring. I doubt it is 48" off the cuddy - that would be somewhere between 7 and 8 feet off the floor of the cockpit, and that's higher than I remember. I would suggest you sail with your setup, and if you find that you trim your pole at an upward angle a lot, then you could put a second ring in place to allow you to sail with your pole in the horizontal position. Under the conditions I sail, and given the particular sail I use for a spinnaker (which was not originally cut for a DS, although it seems to conform to class limits) I tend to have the opposite problem.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Spinnaker hardware set up questions

Postby tedwardo » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:12 am

GreenLake,

Thanks for the detailed information. Very helpful!
For the placement of the foreguy fairlead, it sounds like you would now center it on the deck. I was thinking of placing it a few inches in front of the mast. Does this sound reasonable from your experience?
Ted
DS-1 2677
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Re: Spinnaker hardware set up questions

Postby jeadstx » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:01 pm

Greenlake, do you perhaps have any pictures that clearly show your topping lift bungee arrangement? All the pictures I find have some detail obscured.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
jeadstx
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:10 am
Location: Dripping Springs, Tx

Re: Spinnaker hardware set up questions

Postby GreenLake » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:53 am

My fairlead is placed next to the mast on one side. In practice, it's functional, but perhaps not ideal. In front of the mast would be preferable. When I speak of "center", that was relative to the lateral position. You definitely do not want any fairleads floating about in the middle of the foredeck, but as close to below the mast ring as you can manage (to avoid any off-center pull, here's that word again).

About pictures. The bungee is in front of the mast, the photographer mostly behind same. Hence the obscurities. Shall search.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Spinnaker hardware set up questions

Postby GreenLake » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:23 am

2131

This is a picture from one of the earliest times I used the spinnaker.

You can see several features. The height of the ring relative to the boom; the approximate position of the topping lift eyestrap (can be deduced from angle); the nature of the topping lift (mixed line and bungee cord), the material of the pole (bamboo), the nature of the fittings and the release line, the orientation of the fitting (opening facing up), the placement of the fitting inside the bowline at the clew (the latter to prevent the pole from sliding back along the sheet.

Also that I use a single shackle to connect a fixed combination of topping lift and foreguy to a single ring on the pole. I think the DS is small enough that one can get away with that. On larger boats the connection will be stressed more, and may even be replaced by two sets of bridles, one above and one below the pole. I've not found it necessary to use anything more than velcro (taped with black tape for extra security) to connect the ring to the pole. I'm not trying to represent that as "best practice", but simply something that grew out of a quick jury rig for the first test sail and never needed to be replaced. I do like the convenience of a single connection. (The shackle is stored on the mast ring, with the topping lift under slight tension, when not in use).

At the time I took the picture, an earlier, all bungee, toppling lift had proven too weak. The final configuration uses the same line and bungee, but may involve some parts of the latter being tripled - I simply have no pictures and won't trust my memory.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Spinnaker hardware set up questions

Postby jeadstx » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:52 am

Thanks for the picture.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
jeadstx
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:10 am
Location: Dripping Springs, Tx


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