High winds, main only or Jib?

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High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby domromer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:01 pm

I haven't had a chance to sail my ds much this weekend the winds are forecasted to be 20mph with gusts to 25mph. My previous boats had roller reefing. The dailsailer has reef points but I don't have a jiffy reefing set up on the boom yet. So my intent is to sail either with just the jib or jut the main. Is there a preferred set up for the daysailer? Does it do better with one rather than the other?
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby jeadstx » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:39 am

In heavy winds I prefer to reef the main. I have two sets of reef points in my main and use a jiffy reef system. D&R Marine sells a reefing hook for the DS. For the clew you can rig a line using cheek blocks on the boom run forward to easily cleat the clew and hook the tack to the reefing hook. Although I usually secure my sail to the boom with the bungees that have a loop and ball, securing the reef points along the boom can be omitted, I have done both.

For the jib, I set up a simple downhaul line controlled from the cockpit so I don't have to get on the foredeck. The DH line (light weight, 3/16") runs from the top hank to a small block next to the forestay stemhead and to a clam cleat on the cuddy cabin top. I have it run thru a couple small fairleads just to keep the line against the deck. Once down, pull the jib sheets in and it will keep the jib on the fore deck until it can be secured.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby GreenLake » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:01 am

The DS will not sail upwind at all with only the jib. So, except for downwind-only runs that's not really an option. Only time I sail (very short distances) with jib only is either, returning downwind to the dock, I lower the main, so I can let the jib fly at the last moment to depower completely. Or, launching downwind from a beach, I may raise the jib, get up some speed, then turn up-wind to raise the main.

If you sail without the main, the problem is that your Center of Effort, the mythical point where the "effective" force of the sail acts on the boat, moves aft (you've just removed the forward component of it when you lowered the jib). The Center or Lateral Resistance, defined by the hull and the foils (rudder and CB) stays put. Suddenly you are out of balance!

A remedy is to raise the CB slightly, which moves it back a bit. That's the preferred combination if you can't reef.

If you have reef points, and if the winds are such that you know you want a reef from the moment you launch, you don't need any fancy set-ups. Here's my suggestion for a jury-rig.

Detach the outhaul from the clew and move it to the reef point. Fold down the sail, then use a few turns of a thin line to create a lashing that holds the reef-cringle close to the boom. In the front, make one lashing around the boom, another one around the mast, so that the forward reef point is "fixed" near the tack, but the boom can still swing. Then tighten the outhaul and the main sheet. The difference between this setup and permanent jiffy reef is that shaking out a reef isn't "jiffy" any more, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be an effective technique in a crunch,
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby domromer » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:27 am

GreenLake wrote:The DS will not sail upwind at all with only the jib. So, except for downwind-only runs that's not really an option. Only time I sail (very short distances) with jib only is either, returning downwind to the dock, I lower the main, so I can let the jib fly at the last moment to depower completely. Or, launching downwind from a beach, I may raise the jib, get up some speed, then turn up-wind to raise the main.

If you sail without the main, the problem is that your Center of Effort, the mythical point where the "effective" force of the sail acts on the boat, moves aft (you've just removed the forward component of it when you lowered the jib). The Center or Lateral Resistance, defined by the hull and the foils (rudder and CB) stays put. Suddenly you are out of balance!

A remedy is to raise the CB slightly, which moves it back a bit. That's the preferred combination if you can't reef.

If you have reef points, and if the winds are such that you know you want a reef from the moment you launch, you don't need any fancy set-ups. Here's my suggestion for a jury-rig.

Detach the outhaul from the clew and move it to the reef point. Fold down the sail, then use a few turns of a thin line to create a lashing that holds the reef-cringle close to the boom. In the front, make one lashing around the boom, another one around the mast, so that the forward reef point is "fixed" near the tack, but the boom can still swing. Then tighten the outhaul and the main sheet. The difference between this setup and permanent jiffy reef is that shaking out a reef isn't "jiffy" any more, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be an effective technique in a crunch,


So use the outhual and a lashing to secure the reef point at the clew? Also at the tack I've got a hook. Should I still create a lashing at the boom ams mast while putting the reef point through the hook?
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby domromer » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:39 am

Found a pretty interesting video. Think I might rig up a system like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aQ9PMd8_9g
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby GreenLake » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:17 pm

domromer wrote:So use the outhual and a lashing to secure the reef point at the clew? Also at the tack I've got a hook. Should I still create a lashing at the boom and mast while putting the reef point through the hook?

Didn't know you had a hook. That should be sufficient for the reef point at the tack.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby GreenLake » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:21 pm

domromer wrote:Found a pretty interesting video. Think I might rig up a system like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aQ9PMd8_9g


At the start he says something like only having one hand for this operation while sailing single-handed. I usually heave to when I reef or shake out a reef, so I have both hands free and can even walk to the mast and stand there.

My reefline therefore terminates on the boom, but near the mast.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby domromer » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:08 pm

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm going to look into getting a good easy reefing system installed. I'd like to use the boat this year for the Florida 120.
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby TIM WEBB » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:45 pm

Dom, your DS boom probably has the roller reefing gooseneck, but the problem with roller reefing is that it doesn't provide for the all-important foot tension required to really flatten the sail, which is why you reef in the first place. Not to mention the need for a reefing claw, which is a fiddly PITA.

If you have the reef points in the main and the tack hook, you're already about 75% there! All you need is a clew reef line setup and you'll be all set. As is mentioned in the video, the placement of the clew reef block is of utmost importance. It needs to be located on the boom such that when reefed, the reef line is pulling down and back equally, i.e. at a 45 degree angle. I noticed that he tied his reef line to the leech reef cringle, but most systems have the line going from an eyestrap on the port side of the boom, up through the cringle, down through the block, and forward to a cleat (horn, clam, or cam) on the boom near the gooseneck, so one can reef/unreef while hove to as GL says. The point is to not have to bring the boom to boat centerline to reef the leech. Easily doable with the main down at the dock or on the trailer, but not so much out on the water when the breeze has freshened rapidly! ;-P

The main in the video is loose footed while the DS main has a boltrope foot, but that doesn't really matter as to reefing. The tie downs along the sail are only needed to gather up the portion of the sail below the reefed part, and are optional as John says.

Hopefully we'll get a chance to sail together with the WCTSS before the 120, and I can show you how I've set up TRW for cruising. Are you doing 10K Islands next weekend? I'm gonna keep a weather eye, and make the call by mid-week.
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby domromer » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:10 am

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the info. I definitely see the thinking behind single line reefing. I remember trying to pull the boom in on my peep hen in heavy wind and that was not a whole lot of fun. I'll get my system squared away here in a the next few months. I don't think I'll be down to the 10,000 islands sail as I've hardly had an hour tiller time on the daysailer yet, and I need to get to know the boat (and pickup and outboard) before I go on any adventures that aren't in familiar home waters. I'll make the Cedar Key sail for sure and hopefully Ron will schedule a Ft Desoto sail, once the weather warms up a bit.


Most of my sailing is in or around Clearwater / Dunedin. I've just not been out much over the past two months. usually we manage to sail every weekend...but life has been getting in the way of sailing lately.
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:12 am

No prob! I remember the Peep Hen ... do you guys still have Her?

Keep this in mind: when hove to, you can do pretty much whatever you want with the mainsail, since it's not really involved in the "equation". That's why I'm always hove to when raising or lowering sails if at all possible.

No worries on the adventures - they will all come to you in good time. Get your boat squared away the way you want it to be, then GO! ;-P

Time waits for no one, and the sooner you go, the sooner you will figure out the things on your boat that will make you want to go more and more ...

I haven't been to the Cedar Key event yet, but it's definitely on my "bucket list" (why is it called that? Just wondering ... ). I went to the Ft. Desoto dealio last Fall, but it was a washout. Had a great lunch with amazing friends tho!

Life getting in the way of sailing? Sheesh - tell me about it! But I find it's usually wx getting in the way when life grants you those rare opportunities to get yer water time ... <grin>
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby GreenLake » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:53 am

Being able to heave to is about as important as being able to reef. It's gotten me out of some scrapes where reefing wouldn't even have entered the equation. Unlike reefing, it requires a bit of knowledge and some practice, but no equipment. We've had some discussion on it here, in the past, presumably in the Seamanship and Boat Handling section. If you have questions about it, best open a new thread in that section.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby domromer » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:53 pm

TIM WEBB wrote:No prob! I remember the Peep Hen ... do you guys still have Her?

Keep this in mind: when hove to, you can do pretty much whatever you want with the mainsail, since it's not really involved in the "equation". That's why I'm always hove to when raising or lowering sails if at all possible.

No worries on the adventures - they will all come to you in good time. Get your boat squared away the way you want it to be, then GO! ;-P

Time waits for no one, and the sooner you go, the sooner you will figure out the things on your boat that will make you want to go more and more ...

I haven't been to the Cedar Key event yet, but it's definitely on my "bucket list" (why is it called that? Just wondering ... ). I went to the Ft. Desoto dealio last Fall, but it was a washout. Had a great lunch with amazing friends tho!

Life getting in the way of sailing? Sheesh - tell me about it! But I find it's usually wx getting in the way when life grants you those rare opportunities to get yer water time ... <grin>



No we sold the peep hen, awesome way to lounge on the water, with room for everyone in the cockpit. But it was too slow a boat for me. We are kinda speed demons when it comes to sailing.

The cedar key boat meet up is held in cedar key Florida. I'm really looking forward to it this year. Here are some pics from last year.

If you scroll to the bottom you'll see the cedar key pics.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dsrphotog ... 0790/page2
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:12 am

Yeah, I haven't been to the Cedar Key event yet, but I've heard good things, and it's definitely on my "bucket list".
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: High winds, main only or Jib?

Postby domromer » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:04 pm

TIM WEBB wrote:Yeah, I haven't been to the Cedar Key event yet, but I've heard good things, and it's definitely on my "bucket list".



I really enjoyed it. I sailed a few other boats and got to sail with a lot of really neat small crafts.
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