Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

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Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby UncleHippie » Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:48 pm

Hi Everyone,
I am finally diving into my project of getting my '59 DaySailer with wooden seats fixed up and back on the water. The last couple times I have put any weight on the seat it has felt like there is more flex than perhaps there should be. Anyone with the old wood seats experience this? That seems like a pretty long span of wood to have no front side support. I have only had it out on the water 2 times since I purchased it and both times there were just 2 of us. I am planning to have 4 adults later this fall once she is ready and a little concerned about that much weight on these seats. The wood is not rotten at all, the PO kept it under a roof. But it has dried out and the coamings have a pretty good size crack that also needs repaired. So I am questioning the overall structural integrity of this setup.

Curious if others have a different setup on these older style wooden seats. Open to any suggestions you may have.

Here are some pics and a video that I shot
https://youtu.be/vdi2_APh6lU

JollyJanSeats.jpg
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JanUnderSeatSupport.jpg
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JanUnderSeatSupport2.jpg
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1959 Hull #28 ?
(further research necessary as the only reference is the sail number which can easily be from a different boat)
UncleHippie
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:23 pm
Location: Florida Panhandle

Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:37 pm

I've seen one of these older boats, but never owned one. Yours looks pretty much like what I remember seeing.

I don't see any reason not to add some additional support, even if it's just for peace or mind. You don't write what you have planned, so I could picture two solutions. One would be to glass in a small pedestal, and use that to attach a single "leg" to the floor which is held against the seat by a triangular bracket.

Alternatively, you could make one or more "ring shaped" supports, where the bottom and back part help the forward part act as a leg by holding it in place. In that scenario, no need to glue anything to the floor.

Why a ring and not a solid board? Weight would be one, the other is the observation that the builders changed the flotation by later added seat tanks. That points to the original flotation being possibly a bit marginal. If you have 2-3 ring shaped supports under each seat, those could securely hold one of those tubular flotation chambers, used for Optimists and other boats. That would seem like a win-win from my perspective.

Some people would tab in the bottom member of each support for extra stiffness. Just as long as the whole member is epoxy sealed, little speaks against gluing (part of) the bottom member to the floor. It prevents any movement, so no potential for rubbing etc.

The crack in the coaming. what were your thoughts about that?

I would probably attempt to glue it back - at the minimum so it doesn't extend further. For a fresh crack that can be clamped together with no gaps, I would try waterproof wood glue like TiteBond III. If there's a gap, or clamping isn't an option, I would use an epoxy glue. For a wide crack you might benefit from a filler (wood dust), for something narrower I'd simply use a non-sagging glue like GelMagic. It comes in a cartridge with a self-mixing tip that makes applying pretty straight forward. If a bit of clamping (or a weight) can reduce the gap a bit, I would use that, but for epoxy glue you don't want to squeeze out too much of the glue.

In one of the photos it looks like the coaming that sits on the transom is missing. that would give the back edge of the others some necessary support. If it was missing when you got the boat, perhaps try to replace it, or at least mount short pieces at the end to help support the port and starboard coamings.

Even with the crack your starboard coaming is adding strength to your boat.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby UncleHippie » Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:53 pm

Thanks GreenLake,
I like the idea of adding floatation to the hull, so the loop solution seems like a good one

I have sketched out two possible options that I see working, possibly glassing the entire piece or just the base, not sure about that yet. I think I like the arch design better than the full circle loop, I believe it would provide better support and more room for the inflatable bag to take shape since that space under the seat is not very large. Although in execution I would like to keep the size of that pedestal down to a minimum.

I think I would make the arch out of marine grade plywood cut to shape and then glassed into place.

As for the coamings, yes my thought was to glue the crack and then clamp it together. Just squeezing with my hand I can get it back to almost invisible so the wood should bind back together well. I do still have the back coaming, that pic was taken after I had started to remove everything. Since I have all of the original pieces I wanted to try and bring it all back to life keeping as much original as possible.

Seat-Support-Ver1.jpg
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Seat-Support-Ver2.jpg
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1959 Hull #28 ?
(further research necessary as the only reference is the sail number which can easily be from a different boat)
UncleHippie
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:23 pm
Location: Florida Panhandle

Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby tomodda » Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:08 pm

HI, quick answers, sorry for lack of time:

1) If your boat is #28, then it's from 1958, I have #37
2) You don't need front supports on the seats (actually side, I guess.. towards the centerline), BUT:
3) If it makes you happy, go for it. Maybe somehow fit them onto or against the raised "hump" running along the bilge, that stiffener bulge
4) The weak point in the original seat setup is where the front of the seat joins the thwart. That cleat/piece of wood underneath. Mine broke, I replaced it with a steel plate with chamfered screw holes (fun with my drill press!).

I got some pointers re: coamings, but will have to wait. TLDR: Cut them down, you'll want to sit out on the side decks. I usually sit on the side decks, not on the seats, as it is. I still have my coamings, but they don't protrude above the deck except at the very front and the transom. And yes, you can sit four adults in the boat - 1 astride the thwart, two on the deck/seat, and your lightest crew member to leeward. You'll be fine.

Tom
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Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:51 pm

I'm not going to try to rival your skills in creating designs. My idea had been almost like that top design, except I would have let the bottom edge hug the line of the floor and rear w/o gaps. With that much surface, no need to use support blocks, but you could use a bit of fiberglass tape to "tab" the bottom edge of the support to the hull: you first use some epoxy mixed for filleting (either mix it yourself, or use premixed: SystemThree EZFilliet). That looks like a caulk line and gives a smooth radius over which to laminate the tape 2-3 layers. That should hold the "ring" in place - and screws or angle brackets or even wooden brackets on the underside of the seat will do the same.

For the coaming, if slight pressure closes the gap all the way, so much the better. Epoxy is more forgiving w/ small imperfections of fit and if the wood isn't pristine in the crack, that allows you to sand it out (gently) which would then leave a bit of a glue line. For wood glue, the fit has to be perfect and the gap shouldn't have "weathered" too much (and you nee to apply strong clamping pressure)

Good to know about the rear coaming.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby tomodda » Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:53 pm

Ahn, I missed the design drawings you posted. Not to argue with GreenLake, but I question if these loops are needed. After all, if you are going to stuff inflatable bags under the seats, those will hold up the seats by themselves. All you need to do is fiberglass some attachment points into the bilge (D-rings) and maybe on the "wall", then lash the float bags to the rings. Also, I've measured.. Opti float bags wont fit (unless you keep them partially deflated, by why?). I think that beach rollers are a better idea. And then you can dual-purpose use them as giant fenders, or even... rollers.

As for the broken coaming, I'd put some re-enforcing pins before you glue them up. From experience - I have one broken corner on my starboard coming and have to glue it up AGAIN, I think this is third time? No matter how much I try to be careful, I either lean on it too heavily, or sit on it, or wedge the boom against it. Anyway, I'm putting pins in this time. IF I could find a 9 foot length of mahogany without going bankrupt, I'd just cut a new one. Oh well. Good that you still have your aft transom, you need that. It all locks together.. my boat has a nice bronze-reinforced screwhole on the side coamings and there's a corresponding hole to drive a screw into the edge of the aft coaming. Someone at Marscott in 1958 was handy in wood :).

Fair winds!

Tom
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Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby UncleHippie » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:15 pm

Thanks for the suggestions... Tom I really like the idea of using the beach rollers. I opened up the forward bulkhead last week in order to assess adding a bow loop, and backing plates to the deck hardware and found that there was no buoyancy material of any kind. The only possible location for flotation material at this point is the small enclosed section behind the wooden seats. In any case I need to add floatation all around and the beach roller provides flexibility and functionality, plus I agree that also once inflated should provide the additional support needed.

By the way, I have seen on this forum everyone talking about using pool noodles for flotation. Is this the option that everyone chooses because of the low cost or do they really offer the best floatation assistance per dollar? I saw that Greenlake used the blue board insulation, and just wondering if anyone knows what performs better both as a buoyancy aid and in water resistance? Can't find the blue board in stock, but local Home Depot has the pink stuff insulation board.

Also Tom, you mentioned mahogany as being the wood you would get if you were to replace the existing wooden seats. At first I thought mine were mahogany because of the dark color, but turns out most of that was dirt and after cleaning them up a bit they look more tan. So then I thought they could be teak... thoughts on what was used on these early boats?

mahogany-or-teak2.jpg
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mahogany-or-teak.jpg
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1959 Hull #28 ?
(further research necessary as the only reference is the sail number which can easily be from a different boat)
UncleHippie
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:23 pm
Location: Florida Panhandle

Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby GreenLake » Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:08 pm

Wood species: mine sanded red, so I'm assuming Mahogany, but I don't know. Also at least 5 years younger than your model.

Flotation: if the flotation tank is air tight and going to stay that way, you wouldn't need to add anything, because adding anything adds >0 weight and that reduces buoyancy.

If you add material to the tank to guarantee that there's reserve flotation even if the tank gets breached, then the challenge is to get some material that doesn't get waterlogged over time. Pool noodles are better than styrofoam for that. Something that also would work is empty plastic water bottles that you close and seal with a bit of caulk. If you keep them in the dark, they may last quite a long time (no UV).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby UncleHippie » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:46 am

Thanks GL, You confirmed what I had been trying to figure out for quite some time about the benefits of adding any kind of flotation assistance to an enclosed area. It is there in the event that the area does not stay water tight then the extra buoyancy helps when the water floods in.

I thought the same thing about the wood seats, I just have not got around to sanding them yet. I figured if they start producing red sawdust then I will know for sure. If not then probably teak :D
1959 Hull #28 ?
(further research necessary as the only reference is the sail number which can easily be from a different boat)
UncleHippie
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:23 pm
Location: Florida Panhandle

Re: Should I Add Support to the Old Wooden Seats?

Postby GreenLake » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:54 am

Let us know what you find when you get there.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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