Foam insulation for buoyancy

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Foam insulation for buoyancy

Postby Wyatt » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:42 pm

I am a new DSI owner, and am very grateful for the info posted on this forum. It has saved me and my family from sailing around with 80 lbs. of soggy foam in the buoyancy chambers! Now I need to replace the foam but pool noodles are out of season locally and expensive (about $4.00 ea.) online.

Has anyone used expanded polystyrene foam board (used in building construction) for buoyancy purposes?

One online source I read says that polystyrene insulation shoudn't be used because it reacts with polyester resins and is flammable. I'm not worried about inflammabiity, and guess I'm a little skeptical about
the resins still reacting after 40 years.

Also, how much total buoyancy should we install? 700 lbs?

Thanks,

Wyatt
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Postby Phill » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:33 pm

Wyatt,

You really had some water logged foam. I found a some 4' X 8' X 2" sheets of white styrofoam. I cut them with knife and hacksaw blades into long pieces that would fit into the seats and bow tank. I stuffed as much as would fit. The seats get narrower and shallower at the aft end, so had to make shorter pieces to fill the forward end. I am not sure how many pounds of floatation that gave me, But figured that the foam is just added insurance in case any of the spaces would flood. Otherwise the sealed tank will be dry and watertight. When not sailing I keep the hatch covers off to prevent condensation and allow any moisture to dry out of the tanks. 17 years and none of the white foam has become waterlogged again. Closed cell foam would be better, but weighs twice as much dry.

If you havent capsized yet, you will find that the DS usually goes turtle, completley upside down, and then is very stable and takes two to get back up. When righted the DS will be very full of water and you will need 2 to 5 gal buckets to bail effectively enough to stay ahead of any waves washing in.

Hope this helps.

phill
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Postby Wyatt » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:14 pm

Phill:

Thanks much for the info. I think I'll go for the styrofoam. I've installed the Becksons per your advice and my spaces were all very wet, due to the fact that the 1" plugs were all missing. Wonderfully dry now and I haven't found any signs of soggy fiberglass or delamination.

How quickly does the boat go turtle? I need to prep my girls so they know what to do. I guess you haven't had much luck swimming to the masthead and tying a life preserver to the end?

Best,

Wyatt
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Postby Reef » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:54 pm

Woah Wyatt - You shouldn't need to worry about capsizing this boat. Yes, it's smart to know what to do in the event of a capsize, though this boat is inherently more stable than many small sailboats. You'd really need to have the reflexes of a three-toed sloth in most situations...
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Postby Phill » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:03 pm

+ 1 for what Reef said.

The DS is very stable, and capsizing is rare when daysailing. Most of the capsizes i've seen ( or been in ) have been while racing in 20 - 30 knot winds, or while flying the spinaker in over 18 knots. However, when a DS does go over, it will go straight to turtle unless you get over the side, laser style, and are on the CB as the mast hits the water. All of this actually happens in slow motion, not sudden or violent. Just dont try to climb to the high side after the mast is in the water, you will pull the boat over on top of you. Lots of air will be trapped under the boat, and swiming out can be done in a calm and relaxed way, if you do find yourself inside the turtled boat.

All the above applies to the DS 1 model. The newer SLI DS 1 with the closed in cuddy, fares better, I am told.

hope this helps.
phill
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Postby Wyatt » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:09 pm

Phill:

Thanks for the info. I don't anticipate sailing in any 20-30 kt winds anytime soon.

Regards,

Wyatt
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Postby Geronimo » Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:32 am

Hello again Wyatt,

I have some recent firsthand experience on this topic. I capsized last Sunday while racing with my 9 year old boy as my crew. The wind was very shifty and puffy and we got caught abeam with a puff that drove us over pretty quickly. I think if my son was able to blow off the jibsheet, we could have avoided it. He will hold the sheet at all times in those conditions from now on.

Here on the Toms River the maximum depth of the water is around 9 feet, so turtling is not an issue. However the mast gets driven into the mud making righting the boat difficult. An inflatable powerboat came out to pull our bow around which eventually twisted the mast out of the mud and enabled my son and me to right the boat.

On the foam flotation topic...........I have been hoping that the seat tanks are airtght, so I've been slow to replace the original foam that was removed when I got the boat. The tank that was in the water for the 10 or 15 minutes that we were capsized ended up taking in 10 or 20 gallons of water. I have since stopped by every Walmart and Kmart looking for foam noodles. I bought 28 noodles from a Walmart at $1.00 each. One tank took 18 of these which leaves the other tank 10 shy. My search goes on.
Andy from the Jersey Shore
"oofah!" DS-1 #3877
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Postby Wyatt » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:00 pm

Hi Andy:

Thanks for the info. I thought you said the river was safe!<gr>

Good info to know. I hope your mast came out allright. With the weather up here we haven't been out in a week. In the meantime, I've been fixing a couple of cracks at the seat/hull joint and putting in inspection ports. After hearing your story, I definitely won't rely upon the tank buoyancy alone. Sounds like even on a tight boat water can get in.

Did you have your cb all the way down when the gust hit?

Regards,

Wyatt
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Postby Geronimo » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:13 am

Wyatt,

I suppose I did give you mixed messages about the river. I guess by flipping the boat with my 9 year old son and recovering with no damage makes it sort of safe. I did lose my windex and there was a lot of mud on the rig to clean up.

The board was all of the way down as we were in a head to head tacking duel for first place with another boat. I sailed into a major header which turned out to be a velocity header. After bearing off to try to fill the sails, a nasty lifted puff drove us over. Next time if I'm on my toes I'll try to get out onto the board before the rig hits the water.

I was wondering how you are dealing with the seat to hull joint. I think that is where my seat leaks. I feel much better with the noodles in the seats now. A few of us ordered 55" x 14" air bags to put under the poop-deck. I felt if I had that extra flotation it would have made the bailing much easier after my capsizing.

Andy
Andy from the Jersey Shore
"oofah!" DS-1 #3877
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Postby dsheer » Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:59 pm

Andy,

Was the poop underwater when you capsized - of course it was, but I meant the poop deck. The air bags wouldn't have been much help if the bow wasn't down, and might have hurt if they raised the bow and lowered the stern.

Dan
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plastic bottles

Postby mjenkins » Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:32 pm

I am also new to Daysailers and sailing in general, but have read that the foam can be replaced with plastic bottles (and caps of course!). Does anyone have any experience using 2L bottles to replace the foam under the seats? My apologies if this is a daft idea!

Mike Jenkins
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Postby Geronimo » Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:51 pm

Dan,

The boat laid pretty evenly while capsized. The centerboard slot was probably 6 to 8" out of the water. The airbag under the poop deck would have helped once she was righted. After righting, the rails were almost awash to the point where powerboat waves were washing in. I'm guessing that the extra flotation in the stern would keep the rails high enough to prevent those boat wakes from washing in after righting. The airbag is only $20 from APS, so it's worth a shot. If all goes well, I'll never find out if my theory is correct.

Andy
Andy from the Jersey Shore
"oofah!" DS-1 #3877
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Postby dsheer » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:12 am

Andy,

My confusion - while I've been too pooped to poop on many a deck, my pooped out brain forgot that the poop deck was aft (where one poops) and not forward. Now I'll remember that you don't poop (or pee) into the wind.

At least we agree that the airbags should go in the stern - no wait - the airbag's already there. I'm steering, and the tiller's in the stern, so...

Dan
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capsizing

Postby njsurfboat » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:26 pm

Andy,
I had my blue DS 2 on its side near seaside park about 4 years ago. Luckily it was chest deep water..........and I have a slow, self bailing DS2 (LOL). I had just worked up wind for a while and was on the down wind run in the lee of the barrier island. As the water was smooth, I underestimated the windspeed as I ate lunch with the tiller extension under my arm. Ooooops! (or ooooofah!)It was my first week of ownership, and I quickly learned the difference between my previous keelboat and the DS2. Anyway I realise this thread is about how not to send
DS1s to davey jone's locker so I wll get to my point. My first impulse was to climb on the board, but just pulling down on it with my hand caused so much flex that I was sure my weight would snap it. Its just (cored?) glass. (If you ever put your full weight on that board laterally, share your repair tips? LOL.) I shifted to improvised plan b and walked to the masthead and pushed upward (chest deep water). Luckily that worked.
I would consider taking a hint from the beach cat set. The first thing to do is swim out some floatation to your mast head. Noodles, boat bumpers, floatation bags, whatever. Later boats supposedly have foam filed masts....but I didnt see any sign of foam in either of mine..........
I guess next time the reef stays in?
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performance art

Postby Peter McMinn » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:16 pm

A couple of weeks ago, I capsized my DS1 for the first time in the six years I've owned her. I was single handling and the mainsheet got stuck in a jibe attempt. Anyway, by the time the cloth touched the water, my legs had climbed over the gunnel and were planted on the CB before my head knew what they were doing (thank you, Lasers). I was conscious enough, though, to stand as close to the slot as possible, reducing the leverage and the possibility of snapping the CB. The boat righted immediately and became a novel floating pond. Much to the delight of the people on shore, I scooped and scooped with a 4 gallon bucket until some gracious souls in a motorboat towed me to the dock, where the fun & games continued.

What I learned from this capsize:
1. Know my centerboard. Having had the board out many times for servicing, I'm fully aware of where it is best reinforced with fiberglass, and therefore where to stand on it after a capsize.
2. Carry a square, 4 gallon bucket. A fellow sailor in another DS tossed one to me, and it really worked well with the bailing.
3. Check and maintain the integrity of my tanks. I was suprised that in my 45 year-old boat, the stern tank (enclosed in 1960 boats) was relatively air-tight, while the bow tank had about 10 gallons in it when I pulled the plug (actully a cork from what was probably a late 60's Chardonnay).
4. Install positive floatation--either in noodle foam or air bag. Still have to get to this!
5. Understand that motorboats, in fact, do serve a purpose.
6. Always have a big red clown nose at the ready to enhance the effect.

Cheers!

Peter
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