No place to attach boom-vang

[albanysailer]

Hi all. On my 79' DSII there is no apparent place to attach the boom vang to the mast. There is a slot on the boom, and I can tell how the vang attaches to that, but nothing on the mast end.

Anyone else experienced this? Is there a part I can get to attach to the mast?

Thanks, Bill

[calden]

Bill:

I put a bail on the mast directly above where the mast comes out of the deck. I have a mast hinge that extends a few inches above the deck, so the bail is attached pretty much a hair above the deck, and the bail angles upward about 40°, just the right angle for the vang clip to attach to it.

However you decide to attach that end of the vang, remember that you want it to be lower rather than higher to pull the boom down rather than pull it toward the mast.

I don't know if there are any class rules about this - if that's important to you you might wish to check it out with someone who knows about that.

Carlos

[shawn]

If you have the original type of boom vang then there should be an eye strap on the forward side of the mast just above the cabin top. The boom vang should have a jam cleat and then a length of wire with a ball on the end that slides into the boom atttachment. The mast side should have a double block, one that the boom vang line runs through back to the jam cleat and the other block gets tied around the mast through the eye strap(loosely so that the block is free to ride from one side to the other as you tack and jibe). Maybe not the best setup but it's functional for daysailing. A picture is worth a thousand words but I don't have one at the moment

Good Luck,
Shawn

[Phill]

Heres a couple of links to my Personel Gallery shots of my Vang bail





Top connection to the boom is a ball end on 1/8" wire.

hope this helps. phill

[albanysailer]

Thanks for the replies, I've got some idea of how to proceed now.

[adam aunins]

I hate to thread jump, but what line do you have run in your mast Phill?

[Phill]

Do you mean the red line? = Main Halyard 3/16" Sta Set.
Green line on port side is Jib halyard, same line type.
Blue line is not in mast, Spin Pole down guy just hooked near main halyard for storage.
Hope I understood your question rightly. If not let me know
phill

[albanysailer]

Phill-what size is the the "U" that is attached to the mast? Is that the vang bail? Sorry, I'm new to sailing and learning as I go!

[Phill]

No worries about being new. I remember how I fretted about every fitting and control system as I fitted out Lolllipop when I first got her. In the end I tried the simplest and easiet first and have changed very little, except to beef up some of it as I discovered that some fittings were too weak to hold up.

Yes the 'U' is the boom vang bail.
My mast is 2-1/4" wide at its widest point.
The Bail is just over that width, about 1 washer each side. The bail is 1/4" diameter round stock, with flared ends for 1/4" bolt to mount to the mast. I think that these types of bail are listed by the width of the bail at the mounting holes, but check with your supplier to be sure. These are very strong. Only drawback for me is the shackle that attaches to the bail sometimes sticks a bit when tacking/jibing and makes a bit of scraping sound that can be disconcerting. I've tried everything, polishing, teflon, silicon, graphite. Nothing seems to prevent this popping/scraping sound when there is a lot of tension on the vang, when tacking/jibing.

I had a couple of stainless steel strap type bails with two rivet holes on each side to attach to the mast. Both of them broke at the rivet mounting holes during moderate heavy sailing. Finally learned not to trust the strap type boom vang bails. A bit more money, but worth the peace of mind for the U bails.

Hope this helps.
phill

[drted]

Dear Phil:

Thanks for all the great photos you made available to us in your gallery.

I have been studying various rigging styles via the internet for a couple years and your stuff is the best illustrated I've seen so far.

I have a couple questions if you have time.

1)How thick are your coaming boards?

2)Is your traveler the one and only style you've tried? Mine is similar but has two tails coming through into the cockpit corners. This way I can over tighten beyond the midpoint and haul in closer.

3)How do you decide on placement of where spinnaker pole downhaul turns on or through the deck? I was thinking of using a turning block located on or near the mast/deck meeting point. It looks like you have it entering the cuddy front. Is that just a simple grommet hole or do you have a pulley of some kind?

4)I am going to cut my coamings down and install hiking straps. Could you discuss the pros and cons of the installation? How important is the fastening under the thwart. I see a lot of small boats with them fastened front and back only. Also how important is the extra strap from the CB trunk to transom? Is it used much?

5)I am installing spinnaker sheet blocks through the rear deck. What is the proper placement? How many inches from the stern?

I am sailing the Delaware River in old New Castle, DE with the New Castle Sailing Club in DS 1938.

Ted

[Phill]

Hi Ted, thanks for the kind words.

"1)How thick are your coaming boards? "

Original 1966 boards, about 1/2" thick. When I cut them down I left them a little taller than the deck, abt 1/8", and then angled them down toward the seats a bit to soften the edge when hiking for more comfort.

"2)Is your traveler the one and only style you've tried? Mine is similar but has two tails coming through into the cockpit corners. This way I can over tighten beyond the midpoint and haul in closer."

My traveler is designed to prevent over sheeting beyond the centerline. I believe that the DS needs to be sailed a bit more toward footing than pointing. The centerboard is somewhat undersized making the DS very forgiving and stable. But it also stalls easily if you pinch. So trying to sheet the boom to the centerline is only a good idea in perfect pointing conditions. ie, 7-10 flat water, and then only after getting the speed up to get the CB lifing. Trying to pinch in any other conditions seems to work, but you will stall the CB and be sliding to leeward more than you would believe.


3)How do you decide on placement of where spinnaker pole downhaul turns on or through the deck? I was thinking of using a turning block located on or near the mast/deck meeting point. It looks like you have it entering the cuddy front. Is that just a simple grommet hole or do you have a pulley of some kind?

Placing the downhaul right next to the mast is actually the best place for simplicity. Putting the downhaul like it is on Lollipop, complicates things a bit, or alot depending on how you use it. The advantage of my forward placement is that it creates a forward pull on the pole as well as down.
This keeps the pole end at the spinaker clew and keeps the pole from sliding away from the sail. The disadvantage is that this creates a 'differential' pivot point, as opposed to the uphaul. (This will get tricky, I will try to explain, Hang in there) Because these two controls are working from different pivot points when the pole is adjusted forward or aft with the spinaker guy (windward control line) the uphaul pivots from the same plane as the mast end of the pole. But, the down haul is in a different plane. When the pole is pulled aft the downhaul trys to pull the pole down, OR when the pole is eased forward, the downhaul also eases and lets the pole rise. There are three options to deal with this;
1, use line for both up and down hauls, and adjust them both every time when you adjust the guy. (three adjustments for one result, YIPE )
2, "temper" the uphaul with a 2' section of 1/4" bungee to absorb the length differential when adjusting the guy. This is what some of the very successful California DSer's use. Advantgage is that the pole is positively kept from skying in heavier air. but it also causes the pole height to change whenever the guy is adjusted as described above.
3, "temper" the downhaul with about 2' of bungee. Advantage is that the pole height stays where you set it, no matter what you do with the guy. Disadvangage is the that Pole can 'sky' during jibes in heavy air. The bungee can be backed up with a line to limit its mamimum stretch. This will help with the skying.
Lollipop has option 3.
Yes the hole in the cuddy is just a plastic push in fairlead grommet. The distance from the mast determines how much forward pull is created. More forward = more pole pull to the sail, and more differential troubles. Place the downhaul near the mast base and no differential complications or forward pole pull. Choose your poisen

4)I am going to cut my coamings down and install hiking straps. Could you discuss the pros and cons of the installation? How important is the fastening under the thwart. I see a lot of small boats with them fastened front and back only. Also how important is the extra strap from the CB trunk to transom? Is it used much?

My crew really likes the fastening under the thwart. Really likes! Without that anchor, whenever I take pressure off my the hiking straps, my crew gets the slack I release, and vice-a-versa, I get the slack when they sit in. When really hiking hard, this is VERY disconcerting. With the anchor under the thwart, each position is independant. This also allows for indepenant length adjustment for different crew sizes. My kids are grown now, but three different leg lengths. The extra strap from the CB trunk to the transom is only use for Planing conditions when the skipper sits aft and the crew slides back to the skippers straps to get the bow up and REALLY FLY. Otherwise this strap is unhooked from the CB trunk and stored under the aft deck. (no tripping the skipper, this is very slow, please dont ask how I know)


5)I am installing spinnaker sheet blocks through the rear deck. What is the proper placement? How many inches from the stern?

As I described in the picture description, if to do over, I would place them forward of the aft horn cleat, about 24" from the stern. This will help keep the spin sheet from sometimes flipping over the end of the boom (swimming lessons anyone ?) And should not significantly effect the sheeting angle when close reaching with the chute (spinaker).

Ted I hope this helps. There is a very good fleet of great DS sailors at Severn Sailing Asso. in Annapolis. Perhaps you are close enough to hook up with them.

phill

[hriehl1]

To Phil...

What did you use to attach the U-bail to the mast? If rivets, did you use Aluminum or SS rivets?

If through-bolted, did you put a reinforcing spacer tube inside the mast?

Thanks

[hriehl1]

Another for Phil...

You said

I had a couple of stainless steel strap type bails with two rivet holes on each side to attach to the mast. Both of them broke at the rivet mounting holes during moderate heavy sailing. Finally learned not to trust the strap type boom vang bails. A bit more money, but worth the peace of mind for the U bails.

How did those strap-style bails fail? Did the rivets sheer? Did you use SS or aluminum rivets? Or was the damage worse (like mast damage)?

Thanks

[GreenLake]

Looks like Phill hasn't checked back in a while.

His answer was explicit: the straps broke at the hole for the rivet. The holes do create stresses and with stainless, you can't exclude stress corrosion. That would be my guess.

As to how to attach U-bails, I would use trough bolting. They do swivel, so that can't be good for rivets, and they have single holes at the end, so you'd want something substantial.

I found this thread again, when I searched for some suggested improvements, lots of good info here, so I'm hoping that a reply will bring it back to the top of the list.

[Alan]

GreenLake,

Thanks for bringing this thread up. I spotted the drawing someone posted about using a bail as a vang-to-mast attachment (wish I could remember who, so as to give original author credit), and since I had one of those in my box of shiny new stuff, I installed it.

Then I started wondering whether it was a better idea than the strap in the lower end of the mast slot. This thread answers the question. Here they both are:




The strap (lower arrow) is held in the mast slot by self-locking nuts on the ends of the screws, so the load isn't well distributed.