Seeking early 60's Daysailer I repair advice

[nickspacek]

Hi folks,

We recently purchased a Daysailer I with the hopes of fixing it up, but now that we've got it home and cleaned out I'm starting to get worried there may be more problems than we originally thought!

I took some pictures of some problem areas that I found, here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/nick.spacek ... directlink

Thanks for any advice!
Nick

[GreenLake]

Nick, these are some good pictures to start with.

I have a number of comments, as you requested.

Mast: looks fine. What you are looking at is a mast jack. The disk like thing should be a nut that can be turned to raise the mast. It helps if there's another, thinner disk on top of it , like a washer, because then you can lubricate the surface between nut and washer.

Transom: do I see wood exposed through cracked fiberglass? You may have to dig out/cut away the inner layer of fiberglass to see if that wood is still sound, and if not to restore it (or parts of it) before glassing it in again. While at it, I'd remove the redundant screws and fix the fiberglass on the outside. I would also put a 1" boat drain at the bottom of the transom, with a plug, so you can tip up your boat to empty it.

Cracks along seat: Do these cracks extend through the hull (can you see any from below?). If not, then adding a strip of fiberglass along the bottom edge of the seat, floor in front of the seat should do (after cleaning out the crack). The crack might mean that the seat flotation tanks are not sealed there any more, see below. That's a safety issue. Let's take up details later, when you are ready to do it.

Rub rail: You can get replacement rub rails. Looks like there's been attempts at caulking. I would get a replacement rubrail. And when you have that in hand, take off the old, clean the area. Fix any cracks, seal any leaks, and, where needed, build up the shape of the edge so it takes the new rubrail. Some of the stuff that looks like cracks, but not all, could be just paint/caulk that is now cracking off. Hard to see until you cleaned it all. (In the front, some owners have fiberglassed over the inside of the deck/hull connection - probably to get at leaks that way).

Carlins: The early DS have two areas of structural wood. The carlins are roughly 1.5x1.5 and run underneath the inside edge of the little side decks near the seats. They were loosely glassed in, but not enough to prevent them from rotting, and yours may need replacement.
In your picture they are behind the blue fiberglass right above the seats. /
We can discuss need for and details of carlin replacement later, for now, check whether the wood is soft by trying to screw wood screws into them (the holes should still be there).

The side decks are further supported by little plywood frames (look for the things that look like bookshelf supports, one can be seen above and behind the red gloves in the picture). These tend to be in better shape, because they were not encased and would be able to dry. But check them.

Coamings: Coamings are the upright .75x8"x12' vertical pieces that cover the inside of the side decks (kind of look like seat rests). They screw into the carlins. These are made from some nice looking wood. They are missing in your boat, but they are needed to give strength to the hull. Some people here have done replacements. Search for coamings.

Floor boards: The hull in these early DSs is thin in the rear. They came with floor boards (see discussion here). If you have none, rebuild from patterns. Or you can chose to turn your floors into a sandwich (look for the thread "the core project" for details - that project gave nice results, but you don't have to go that far.)

Gurgling water: Your mystery picture is the front of the seat tank. There are drain holes in it that are open. Theres another tank in front, forward of the mast. These tanks are probably filled with a mixture of 1:1:1 air, soggy Styrofoam and water. The accepted remedy is to cut inspection ports, 6" in the seat fronts, 6 or better 8" in the bulkhead in front of the mast, and empty these tanks. Then fill with better foam (the blue/pink kind) or pool noodles - many threads on flotation here in the forum. Happy to discuss details when you get around. (Some water may get trapped under the mast step - you may need to drill a small drain hole right in front of the centerboard trunk.

This is a safety issue. Tanks must be dry, firmly closed and with reserve flotation, or you could lose your boat after a capsize.

Deck/Hull: You are not showing pictures of deck and hull. I would take pictures of all areas of the boat, if only for reference later. Check Hull for cracks/scratches and read up about repair methods. Check deck for strength. Shouldn't feel soft or crack when you step on it.

Cleanup: A pressure washer might be needed, and might go a long way towards removing not just dirt, but loose paint. In the process you will discover more details. I can already spot a few places that look like non-expert attempts at repairs. Their nature will be more obvious when you've cleaned them. Take copious pictures.

This is a long list, but I hope it will help you sort out what you want to tackle first, and prepare the way for more questions. You should be able to take her out in between repair phases if that suits you, but do the safety related ones.

[GreenLake]

Nick,

my suggestions above are based on a mix of experience with what I had to fix with my own DS (including what I may want to fix next - carlins for example - but haven't gotten around to), and careful reading of the war stories in this forum. My DS1 is close to yours in age, but was in better shape, but not great. At the time I wanted something I could sail for a while before having to do any repairs, and that nearly worked: except one of the jib tracks cam out and broke in half on the maiden voyage.

I hope I haven't discouraged you totally with my long list. With some TLC this will clean up nicely - and you can probably stage the work so that you can get some sailing in as well. Unless you are the type who likes to have a project in his garage for five years until it's perfect.

In the meantime, you'll find several knowledgable people here who will give you detailed suggestions on how to tackle anything. I'm sure some of them will chime in before soon. You may have mentioned it before, but you might repeat what your general experience level is, so we don't keep telling you what you already know...

Anyway, welcome.

[Peterw11]

Nick:

Do you know anything of the boat's history? It looks as though it may have spent some time submerged.

The reason I say that, is that it looks as though it has more than it's fair share of cracks and mickey mouse repairs.

Of course, I can only go from what I see in your pictures, but it looks as though the deck is cracked all around the perimeter where it connects to the hull at the rub rail area. That isn't normal.

Is any of the deck sunken below the rub rail? (it looks like it is, particularly at the bow). Also, at the stern, the jury rigged plywood blocks holding the gudgeons may very well be there because the original screws won't hold due to rot in the transom. The gudgeons should be screwed directly into the the transom.

And I'd be concerned about all the patched holes. Why would anybody drill holes in the hull, unless there was water penetration? That might explain the gurgling sound as well.

Also, what is that grey filler at the base of the seats? The cracks aren't that unusual for a boat that age, unless they go all the way through and either the seats are loose, or they go all the way though the hull.

What does the bottom look like? Roll it over on one side and check it out.

Have you had it in the water? Does it leak?

I agree with GreenLake. Get after it with a pressure washer, (at the very least) if not some kind of sand blasting device. Removing all that crap is the only way your gonna get the true picture.

Good luck, man.

[GreenLake]

Some comments on Peter's replies:

The mickey mouse repair problem is obvious. It's hard to judge from just the pictures, but removing the caulking might show you that the underlying problem isn't really all that bad, if approached with the right fix and correct materials (fiberglass).

The transom seems to be the weak spot for this boat, but it would not be the first DS1 with that issue (as you can read here in the older posts). I'm afraid I missed the significance of the plywood reinforcements for the gudgeons - they were visible on the original photos by the previous owner, but on the closeups it's clear that Peter called it right: a strong transom would not need them.

The caulking at the bottom of the transom is to cover a removed or leaking drain hole. These boats us usually have a 1" brass drain with a rubber plug at that location.

On the bow area, I disagree with Peter. On the older DS1s you can get a depression between deck and rubrail. Some of what looks like cracks on the photos (i.e. 5 of 15) might in fact be caulking that's flaking off. That can be removed. If there's a need to seal the deck / hull joint, in my view, the better method is to glass this over from the inside.

On the starboard side, it appears as if the deck is cracked where it meets the hull. Again, adding a layer or two of glass from the inside between deck and hull would initially seal the area and provide back some the strength lost. That would allow you later to replace the rubrail, and while the old one is off, and before the new one is on, to grind off, and rebuild the broken fiberglass.

I mentioned the possibility of staging repairs. Do the minimal, safety and structural stuff first, put her in the water and sail some, then do the next stage. Fixing the deck/hull joint by reinforcing it from the inside is a phase 1, doing the rubrail/crack fix on the top, is phase 2, painting/surface is phase 3 (or phase last )

The good thing about the DS1 is that, except for the flotation tanks there are no hidden places for water to accumulate (no double hulls). The photos from the original listing show it floating, btw. If those are recent, I wouldn't expect a leaking hull. (Possibly a slow leak at the CB handle).

[nickspacek]

Thanks for all the advice! I've got to say, that laundry list of problems is a little intimidating, hah, but I suppose we should have known what we were getting into...

I've been underneath, it was night so I didn't have good enough light to try to take pictures of the hull but I will try. It seems solid to me, I haven't seen any cracks and the boat was holding water when we got it... holding water inside that is. Rainwater was all that was though!

Also, I should have taken a picture of the trailer it is sitting on, or at least the supports that the trailer has. Memory tells me that it's sitting on three double sets of keel rollers, ones that look something like this:

http://www.easternmarine.com/EZ-LOADER- ... sy-R10591/

There are 3 different placements with 2 pairs of the above at each. I'm worried about getting in the boat with only those for support, because at the stern of the boat there is only support on the outer edge. That's when we really noticed the cracks along the seats--when weight was placed in the center of the boat.

PS: Coamings are what I'm looking at in this picture, correct?

[Peterw11]

Aha! I thought that boat looked familiar.

GreenLake's reference to previous pictures tipped me off. I went to the For Sale section and found the thread. That's MaineDuckHunter's old boat.

Now I get it.

Well for starters, you know the boat floats and has been sailed recently.
That's good. Floating is good.

The cosmetics leave something to be desired, but if the basics are sound, (standing rigging, chain plates, mast and sails, etc. at least you can get it in the water and have fun with it. The cosmetics can come gradually.

I'm guessing the pressure wash treatment would be a great place to start and make a world of difference. A good washing would probably strip a lot of that loose paint from the cockpit, as well as any on the outside.

You also mentioned access to a local marina. If they've got a knowledgable staff, maybe they can give you a quick survey of the structural condition. and how to best go about making repairs.

Most fiberglass work can be done at home with a little education and determination, helping to keep the budget intact, but an expert appraisal of the condition will point you in the right direction.

[GreenLake]

Thanks for all the advice! I've got to say, that laundry list of problems is a little intimidating, hah, but I suppose we should have known what we were getting into...

Divide and conquer !!
And try to intersperse the work with some fun.
You'll be fine.

I've been underneath.... It seems solid to me, I haven't seen any cracks and the boat was holding water when we got it.

If/when you can, launch the boat onto a piece of lawn. Rig the mast, (and stays!) and then, using that as a lever, tip her over. Also the best way to get at the centerboard.

Also, I should have taken a picture of the trailer it is sitting on, or at least the supports that the trailer has. Memory tells me that it's sitting on three double sets of keel rollers, ones that look something like this:

Trailers for the DS should have rollers supporting the keel, at least through and including the centerboard, and in addition bunks roughly underneath the seat edges. Trailers without enough keel support or just rollers under the flat part of the hull are not ideal. You'll either modify your trailer or eventually you'll want to reinforce the hull (search for "the core project" in this forum). On my trailer I have rollers under the centerline and bunks. Your worries about putting weight on the boat with the current supports are right on target.

PS: Coamings are what I'm looking at in this picture, correct? gallery/image_page.php?image_id=799

That's a great picture showing the coamings (2 side, one transom) and also the cute little wooden shelf that fits under the rear deck.

[GreenLake]

Most fiberglass work can be done at home with a little education and determination, helping to keep the budget intact, but an expert appraisal of the condition will point you in the right direction.

Make that "all fiberglass work". At least on a DS.

Making structurally sound fiberglass repairs is relatively easy, the DS is not very demanding, and the DS1 in particular has few really inaccessible spots. There are good guides on using epoxy for boat repairs from West System and System Three, if you check out the literature on their websites. And we're happy to give you specific suggestions for particular repairs.

Making repairs that can be sanded fair (important for looks and where water flows along submerged hull surfaces) is primarily a matter of working neatly. You can improve your chances by tackling the least demanding repairs first, or also by building something else out of fiberglass to give you a feel for the process and what works/doesn't work in working with the material when it's applied and before it's cured.

Covering up the repair so it disappears requires the most work in a normal situation. But here, we can assume you'd want to paint the boat anyway when you are done, so you'll be doing that work anyway, whether there's a repair spot or not.

Epoxy, which most here would recommend for repairs, doesn't like UV exposure, so you may want to cover repairs with a primer or a dab of temporary paint if you want to use the boat for a while before all the repairs are completed and it's time for the final paint job.

[nickspacek]

Thanks for the help! Is there someplace to find a detailed drawing of the boat's structure? I guess now I understand that there are tanks under the seats, in the bulkhead, etc., but when I hear descriptions of things it's sometimes hard to understand exactly what's being talked about.

I've been reading through a few fibreglass repair books over the last couple weeks, most I've what I've read recommends the poly resin over epoxy for most repairs, mainly I think because of the increased cost of epoxy. Granted the books were written over 20 years ago , but the author seemed to describe epoxy for rare/very specific tasks such as getting a better bond to plywood. Any particular reason to use epoxy for these repairs?

[mistermoon]

Epoxy is better all around, IMO.

* It doesn't stink
* It has better adhesion to the existing structure.
* It's easier to handle. Use slow hardeners for longer working time.

[kokko]

Nick:

The foam flotation has certainly become waterlogged and will need to be replaced. THere is a lot of info on this project, but tyhe basic steps are cutting access holes in the seats and forward tank, pulling out the old and replacing it with some new flotation material. Most everyone uses swim noodles, but a few opt for soda bottles.

[GreenLake]

Probably nobody's bothered with making a drawing for this, certainly haven't seen one yet. The DS is really simple. Except for the inside of the three tanks, all is open to view.

With a digital camera you can easily make pictures of places that otherwise would take a few contortions to get close to, like under the side and aft decks looking up, or the underside of the front deck.

Why don't you install the access ports to your tanks as a first step? That project is not dependent on any other work and will allow you to get a peek inside these compartments.

While you're at it, you can replace the soggy foam. If you don't know how to source noodles for a reasonable price or don't drink soda in the required quantities, the blue or pink Styrofoam for insulation would work. It's a lot less susceptible to moisture than the stuff the builder put in.

mistermoon has said almost anything there's to say about epoxy, other than that it gives a full vapor barrier, so it has some nice properties when you use it with wood. It does need to be covered from UV when done, but you are planning a paint job anyway, so that's not a relevant difference.

Don't forget to go backwards in the repair and DS1 forums to read up on detailed descriptions of typical projects and discussion of the best way. That'll allow you to ask more focused questions.