DS2 Bow/Deck Seperation

[Cal]

While tacking today in light, 5-10mph winds, there was a bang and the deck lifted off the bow. Carefully got back in, took a look, and found an inverted L shaped piece of steel had pulled out of the bow stem. The short leg of the L attaches to the deck and has the bolts for the bow stay and jib attach. Didn't see anything to hold the L down in the bow other than resin.

Do I now have a planter? Can I drill a second bow eye, or bolt, above the original bow eye and through the L? What is recommended to reseal the deck to the hull?

Anyone seen this before?

Cal

[GreenLake]

Cal,

Pictures would help!

If the long leg of the L separated cleanly it might be possible to glue it back into place with a thin epoxy, for example, laminating epoxy. After that I'd drill a hole, not a second bow eye, but just a regular bolt and epoxy that one in as well (no need for a nut because the force to be held is across the bolt).

This is just the first suggestion - whether I would actually do this, in case it happened on my boat would depend on a number of factors.

What's the thickness of the laminate on front/back of the L piece? Is the laminate itself in good shape or is it damaged? (is good on the outside and damaged inside or vice versa?) If the bow laminate is damaged, then it would need to have to be rebuilt. If it appears too thin to firmly encase the long leg of the L, then it may need to be strengthened - normally from the inside. A tough spot to reach....

My initial thoughts on gluing the deck to the hull: if bending the deck back down leaves no gap, just use epoxy. (For this, I'd use a gel-like epoxy, similar to the Gel-Magic from System Three). Afterward I'd put a layer of cloth tape over the deck / hull joint from the inside. (A previous owner did that on my boat - so this problem must not be uncommon). For that you'd need to prep the surfaces for about 2-4" on either side of the joint.

To get a nice round shape so that the new glass isn't kinked, you could use special filleting epoxy or just stuff a thin, folded strip of glass mat that's been whetted out with epoxy. It should conform and leave a nice inner surface for the tape to allow it to make a curve from deck to hull.

Something along those lines. (Might help if you can lay your boat upside down - it's tricky enough to get to that spot and you don't want to fight gravity in addition...)

But pictures and some more ideas about dimensions would help the "remote diagnosis" to be a bit more likely to be on the mark.

[jpclowes]

This happened to my old DS II, before I bought a DS I. It is actually not as daunting as it sounds to repair it. We started by using epoxy in the hole where the tang came out of, and along the joint between the hull and the Deck. We used a couple of trailer tie-downs to hold the deck in place. We also added 3 large stainless bolts that went through both the hull, the metal tang, and came through into the bow flotation tank. (I don't remember the size of the bolts, this was over 10 years ago.) We added an access panel so we could get in to tighten the bolts. I think we used epoxy on the bolts too, to keep water from seeping in around them.

This happened to me sailing in about 4-6 foot chop in Sarasota Bay, on a very windy day. The fact that it happened to you in calm conditions makes me wonder how many other DS II s have this problem. The repair made the boat much stronger than originally produced.

[Cal]

Thanks for the quick replies,. I was surprised that there were no barbs on the tang to better grip the epoxy and how clean the tang was. Initially the tang came all the way out but went partially back down when I started playing with it.

Got pictures in my Picassa but can't find a way to attach. Basically like being a dentist and the DS is opening wide with one buck tooth. Guess I could always paint some shark teeth on it. Seem to have mostly flotation foam backing up the hull deck seam.

Cal

[GreenLake]

Just provide the link. Sites like that usually give you a link like you would send someone in e-mail. You can copy that here, or, if you want to make it active, do it like this example (as in the code box below):

Code: Select all

[url=http://daysailer.org]click here![/url]

and you will get something like this:
click here!
which, if you clicked it, would take you to the home page of this site.
Simply substitute the link to your picasa folder.

[EberbachD]

This also happened to our DSII a number of years ago. Ripped up the topside. We had the fiberglass repaired and added 4 bolts on each side joining the topside to the hull. I recommended at that time that all DSII owners install bolts proactively to avoid this problem. The glue that hold the parts together will fail and as you found the front stay (and l bracket) are not attached to anything structural. We have had no further problems since, just two mediocre repair seams on our topside. Hope other DSII owners read this thread. Sorry it happened to you.

[jeadstx]

My DS2 when I got it had the attachment for the forestay partially pulled up and bent. I got a new part from D&R and just put in new bolts. My DS2 is an earlier model (1976) than the two boats mentioned (according to the sail numbers). I know from other posts that there is a change in the pivot points on the centerboard (i.e. CB bolt for earlier DS2's versus metal plates holding the board in place on later DS2's). Could the attachment point on the bow for the stay also have changed? From the description of the damage it would seem like my hardware would have ripped the mounting bracket out rather than bend like it did. Attached is a picture of my damage when I purchased the boat.

[/url]

John

[Cal]

Side view - top of the hull doesn't show mush in the way of old bonding material.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_GP98XudIP4g/TIBTE ... 01713a.jpg

Front view - was higher with bottom of tang showing. Lots of room for more flotation.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_GP98XudIP4g/TIBTI ... 001713.jpg

I assume that it doesn't need much in the way of a bolt - 3/8" stainless, or even a 1/4", should have more sheer strength than the 1/8" bow stay.

If there is enough material behind the tang slot do I need to put a nut on the bolt or just use it as a pin and epoxy it in place?

Thanks for the help.

Cal

[GreenLake]

Bonding material hull/deck: I didn't appreciate at first that your bow flotation goes to the top of the deck (mine doesn't, as I have an older DS1). That will probably not allow you to lap the joint from the inside with epoxy and tape like I suggested.

If all the stem-plate loads get transferred to the hull after the repair, then an alternative to using epoxy to bond deck / hull might be 3M 5200. It is supposed to have superior bonding capabilities and should conform well to whatever small gaps remain and nicely seal the opening.

Not something I have used myself, but I've seen it mentioned in the context of bonding decks to hulls, and it's recommended by 3M for that purpose.

If you go that route, then you want to make sure that the L-bracket is truly bonded to the hull, so the only loads come from the hull/deck joint. (If you worry about that joint, you could through bolt it in addition, but seeing how generously sized the "lip" is on the hull, I think you'll be fine for the loads generated by the DS hull.

Tang: I think the idea that the bolt will simply act like a pin is the correct one - as long as fiberglass skin on that side can't contort so much as to slip over the bolt. (The epoxy should serve to hold it firmly to the side of the metal tang anyway). However, adding a layer or two of glass for piece of mind should be easy, as you can work through the "gap".

Off the top of my head, I'd suggest that 1/8" of laminate might strike me as sufficient. I'm basing that on a piece of laminate that I cut out for an inspection port, and it is between 1/16th and 1/8th thick. Looking at how stiff that piece is, I'd say it should easily hold the load.

If you still worry, and have enough space on your tang, use two bolts. Then, most of the time the epoxy would hold - since it doesn't give very much, the bolts wouldn't be stressed. Should the epoxy fail, the bolts would act as backup, and with two bolts, each bolt/laminate interface would need to hold 1/4 of the total load. I think you'll be fine.

[MrPlywood]

For bonding, you could also look into Sikaflex. I believe that it's similar to the 3M product that GreenLake mentioned.

I used their 291 to bond broken rubrail sections back to the hull. It has held up very well, showing no signs of failure despite being a rubrail and taking the abuse.

Their stronger 292 is "A high viscous, high strength adhesive, Sikaflex®-292 can replace rivets, screws, welds and other mechanical fasteners in building and repairing boats of all types".

http://www.sika.ca/ind-mar-mar_prod.htm

[Cal]

Thanks again for the suggestions. From the looks of the hull, expanding foam was sprayed along the seam after the deck was put on. As if the tang took the load and everything else was a water sealant along the seam. The front compartment is 3/4 filled with loose foam blocks, I need to add a few more.

Looks as if any repair will be stronger than the original build. I had been wondering about 5200 because of its longer set up time vs. epoxy. might even avoid the need to flip the hull.

Cal

[GreenLake]

I wouldn't see a need to flip the hull. You might like to refer to this Sika brochure on Hull/deck bonds.

http://www.sikaindustry.com/ipd-mag-6.3.pdf

[Cal]

A few more pictures.

Inside looking at the stem.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IZ ... directlink

Room for more flotation.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Sj ... directlink

Chip was there, crack is new. A few taps with a block of wood closed most of the gap.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XW ... directlink

Cal

[GreenLake]

Laminate: (If that's what it is ). Looks like oodles of heaped up frozen slather Hard to be sure, but looks like there's enough to hold any bolt.

Flotation: you'll want to replace this stuff by something that can't get waterlogged. This type of Styrofoam can absorb water over time - at least it looks like the kind that was in my boat. I replaced it with the blue foam that is available for home insulation. Since you have the largest "inspection port", ah, gap, ever, you should have not problem fitting that.

Crack: The crack hides failed laminate - looks that way, because you write you could close it with hammer blows. I assume it's a result of the deck bending up? Once the deck is closed again. you'll want to grind out the failed laminate and then repair laminate and gel coat. (If you're curious, read some older posts here, we've had the subject not too long ago. If you need more advice ask again when you're ready to tackle it.).

Chip: This one just needs a gelcoat patch. Not to difficult (ditto for the details).

[Cal]

Thanks for the suggestion on foam replacement. Chip repair will be a full time job, lots of them around the deck edges. May have to haul it back to Texas for a winter project - then again, maybe not.

Found the 292 locally and will get that going once Earl slips past.

Cal