DaySailer.org Forum

I've got a DS-I with a cabin top mast hinge.

I would like to lead both the main and jib halyards back to the cockpit.
I was planning to install a pair of blocks on on the cabin top on opposite sides of the mast, from which I would lead the halyards back to cam cleats on the edge of the cabin top.

A couple of questions:

Do I need to reinforce the cabin top with a wood at the mounting point, or are metal washers sufficient reinforcement ?

Any recommendations on the positions of the blocks or cam cleats ?

The front edge of my cabin tends to flex more than desired when a crew member is working on the cabin top. I was planning on reinforcing the edge with some wood at the location where the cam cleats would be installed. Any suggestions as to how to attach the wood to the underside of the cabin top ?

Thanks
Bill H

If you want to use wood for reinforcement, then I would use epoxy to glue it underneath the cabin top and then coat the wood in epoxy from all sides (and perhaps give it one or two layers of glass on the underside.

My preferred epoxy glue is SystemThree's GelMagic - and my preferred way of applying it is from the self-mixing tip of their caulk-gun cartridge. That tends to provide a nearly mess-free way of applying the glue, and the GelMagic is non-running and non-sagging.

To coat the wood I would use their RotFix, ClearCoat or Laminating Epoxy (SilverTip). I've rated these in order of how thin they are. RotFix is like water and really soaks in. ClearCoat is the best general pupose wood coating and the laminating epoxy is the best for, well, doing fiberglass.

Epoxies have really long shelf lives, so you should buy whichever kind you think you'll need for some other project in the future and keep the remainder of it around.

I would coat the wood on the work bench (atop a piece of wax paper) and glue it in place as soon as the epoxy begins to get hard (not jelly, hard). I would use the cartridge to liberally spread glue on the top side of the wood, then press it in place with a post (use wax paper for the support).

For adding a layer of fiberglass, ordinarily I would use laminating epoxy, but GelMagic works for this purpose in a pinch and might be less messy to use in an "overhead". Just make sure you work the mat or cloth really well to help the epoxy to wet it out.

I would lay up one or two layers on a piece of wax paper and then, immediately, while the epoxy has not "kicked" lift it with the paper and apply it underneath the wood. If you have some material like a soft foam then that with a board underneath would be the way to press the lamiate in place. (Double the foam next to the wood to help the laminate conform. (Or you could turn your boat upslide down, but then you need to be sure not to rest it on the cabin deck or you will deform the area you are trying to reinforce).

If your cabing top's underside looks like the one on my boat, yoy may want to place the reinforcement about 4-5" forward as the cabin top isn't level near the edge.

That would determine the placement of your halyard cleats.

For the turning blocks, I would definitely use a backing plate, or, if possible, mount cheek blocks on the mast.

Holstein, what you propose is pretty standard stuff, I did it myself but soon removed the deck mounted (backed up with fender washers) blocks and cam cleats as the increased friction in the system prevented me from pulling the sails up all the way. I changed over to a direct pull system on the halyards, with mast mounted horn cleats, which works the best in my opinion but requires standing on the cuddy roof (which doesn't bother me but some don't like leaving the cockpit).

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=51610&familyName=Harken+Pivoting+Single+Bullet+Block+with+Cam

The only other system I considered was the swivel mounted block and camcleat combination that mounts to the base of the mast. I would have tried this but the blocks weren't in my budget! But, it would save you a lot of work and new holes in your cuddy top, but I'm not sure if you can pull the sail up adequately because I don't have experience with it. BTW, it's cheaper at www.defender.com but the URL wouldn't work here???

Bill,

I fully agree with jdoorly on the relative merits of different layouts, but I decided I wasn't going to be the first trying to talk you out of it.

My mast sports the horn cleats and I use them fine w/o leaving the cockpit. I do stand up in the front of the cockpit and lean forward, though.

When the halyard is nearly taut, I pull it with my right hand around the base of the cleat, and with my left hand, reach up as high as I can on the halyard and pull sideways. As I let go, I take up the slack by pulling more halyard around the base of the cleat.

The sideways pull has an enormous mechanical advantage, something like 10:1, while even a quarter turn around the cleat adds so much friction that I can hold against the full tension with one hand.

There's no way I could generate the same tension with a block at the base of the mast and the regular cleat on the cuddy top.

PS: as for reinforcing the deck where it's soft, now that you have a suggestion how to do it, you can sit back and re-evaluate whether the amount of movement you observe is in fact worrisome or not. My DS has a bit of "give" on the foredeck, but I haven't mustered the drive to actually add reinforcements there.

PPS: if you are adding reinforcement at a place where you are not likely to add hardware, I would probably dispense with the wood and do a hollow stringer - we've discussed those here.

PPPS: the discussion in reinforcing the cuddy deck is continued in its [ur=http://forum.daysailer.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18272#18272]own thread[/url].

Thanks Greenlake, Jdoorly,

My reasoning for installing the cabin top mounted halyard cleats was to be able to easily tighten the jib halyard from the cockpit while under way.

Due to the challenging conditions at the ramp, I typically motor out or sail under main alone until I reach an open area. At that point I have my young daughter or less experienced crew member hoist the jib. More times than not, I find that the jib is not adequately tensioned, and having the crew re-tension while under way, just makes things worse.

In windy conditions, I'm usually uncomfortable with leaving the tiller to tend to the jib halyard. I was thinking that installing a halyard cleat in a location that can be reached from the cockpit would be easier and safer to adjust reach while underway.

I already have the horn cleats on the mast.
Perhaps there is another alternative that you can suggest ?

Thanks
Bill H (Amanda Morgan)

Bill,

My halyards are on the mast and I never leave the cockpit to hoist sails; I stand against the aft edge of the cuddy roof and raise sails from there. I did add a 3:1 halyard tensioner on my jib halyard (I stole the idea from a Hobie 16 I owned years ago). There is a photo of the tensioner in my personal gallery. Essentially it consists of a block with becket on the halyard and a cheek block on the mast. I hoist the jib until I can reach the block w/becket, pull a loop from it and lay it over the cheek block, and then tension the halyard with the bitter end of the halyard. The 3:1 advantage allows me to pull the jib halyard tight enough to slack the forestay and it allows adjustment underway if I pull it too tight or too loose. [/img]

Hey Bill, not sure if you got a close look at my setup at the Trans-Monroe, but I'm using the combo bullet block/cleats that jdoorly mentions. Intensity has them for a bit less $$:

http://www.intensitysails.com/ha1bigbublwi.html

I had bullets at the base of the mast and cam cleat/fairleads on the cuddy lip, but when I installed the boom vang I found that the halyards interfered with it's side to side travel, so I went with this. Now the halyards run loosely from the block/cleat back over the cuddy lip and down into mesh sheet bags mounted below the bottom edge of the cuddy opening. I find that I can get very good halyard tension on both, even from a seated position in the cockpit, and I can swivel the block/cleats forward and out of the way of the vang.

There's pics of it in my gallery ...

Bill,

BTW, I forgot to mention that I use a Tiller Tamer to "hold" the course while I move forward to raise sails. While it's not perfect, it usually gives me enough time to get the sails up before I have to adjust the course.

I also use a Tiller Tamer to hold course to move forward when I'm single handing the boat. I also have a tiller extension.

John

Just to add another option (possibly more confusion), I made a close variation of Phill Roots 3:1 jib halyard set up. I like it and it's real easy to adjust while underway. gallery/image_page.php?image_id=540