Continuing: reinforcing cuddy deck

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Continuing: reinforcing cuddy deck

Postby GreenLake » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:50 pm

Continuing the discussion on reinforcing the cuddy deck which started in the thread on relocating halyards, Bill had some follow on questions:

Some follow on questions.

I was planning on using oak that is readily available at Lowes. I Oak an acceptable material ?

My cabin top has a significant arc. I measured more than a six in difference between the height of the center to the edges. I was therefore planning to use 2 inch wide by 1/4 inch thick planks so they can easily be bent into position.

I was thinking I would need to install two of the 1/4 in planks to get the added stiffness I was looking for.

Should the two planks be installed at the same time, or should the epoxy be allowed to harden between plank installation ?


Let me answer these in a slightly roundabout way.

Think of an I beam for a minute. It has two flat straps (top and bottom) separated by a thin middle stem, but it's as strong as a solid beam. For your deck reinforcement that means you'd get stiffness by taking a second layer of glass, and separating it from the main deck.

Boat builders use balsa wood for this, because in that configuration the middle part doesn't actually provide the bending stiffness.

For your deck this means you could suitable pieces of any wood that's bendy enough to follow the curve of the deck and still get the deck to be stiffer - if you cover the wood with 2-3 layers of glass, this would work even if you'd use only a single piece.

Or, you could dispense with the wood entirely and use foam or air. 4"x1/2" should give you quite a nice foam blank. I think that you'd find that almost any combination of a few layers of glass, cloth and mat alternating would end up strong enough, although you could run a strip of unidirectional glass along the underside of the foam.

Whatever you do, each layer of glass gets to be wider than the next so you end up with a gradual increase in thickness. You also need to round all edges and "fillet" the transition between foam and deck so there are no sharp curves.

"Air" would mean a cardboard tube from paper towels or gift wrap. Sliced open to form a U. Well-coated with epoxy it will not rot later, and you use it like a foam blank.

Of course, you could simply glue some wood. In that case, you should know that red oak is not particularly rot-proof, and that's what your supplier will have. You would want to coat it in epoxy (all six sides!) after making sure it's well dried.

Traditional wooden-boat building would steam planks to make them conform, but that's tricky if you'd like them nicely dry for epoxy sealing.

The strength in your approach comes from using multiple layers of wood.
Until the glue cures they can slide against each other while they bend to conform to the curve. Afterwards the glue locks them into that shape. If you want to be fancy, you'd make them different width, so you get something that looks like an inverted step-pyramid. That makes for a more gradual transition between unsupported and supported parts of the deck.

You can do that with thin planks of oak, but I suspect the advantage of using that material will be limited. A/A exterior plywood (1/4") or marine plywood would do as well.

Adding each plank at a time, letting the glue cure, then covering the underside and sides in epoxy and gluing the next piece on would work fine. Or you could assemble the stack and glue it in one sitting. That should work as long as you have strong enough supports to force the whole stack into the desired curve (before the glue hardens, the stack is less strong). The latter would work best, I think, if the wood you use was something initially not very stiff (like plywood).

I'd probably go with the divide and conquer approach, unless you're experienced working with epoxy (and comfortable working under the time constraint of getting everything in place before the epoxy "kicks").

Make sure you cover all sides of the wood to seal out moisture and then cover any exposed epoxy with some paint for UV protection - over the decades of remaining lifetime for your boat, even the underside of your cuddy would get quite a bit of reflected UV.

If you use the glue out of the cartridge as I suggested, you won't have any hassles in getting the proportions right or having to mix more than you might need. However, each time you take a break in your work long enough for epoxy to cure, you'd need to get a new self-mixing tip - make sure to get a few.
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Postby jdoorly » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:44 pm

3 things overlooked by the normally encyclopedic GreenLake:

1) When epoxy is layered the adhesion of one layer to another is described as either 'chemical' or 'mechanical'. If the newer layer is installed after the under layer is tack free but before 72 hours has passed (your mileage may vary) the under layer is said to be in a 'green' state and newer epoxy will become chemically adhered, i.e. the 2 layers will truly be 'one'!

2) if you don't get the new layer on the older layer before 72 hours has passed (ymmv) then you should sand the old layer with rough grit (60 to 100) sandpaper so the new epoxy will have 'tooth' with which to mechanically adhere. This 'mechanical' bond is of lesser strength but will prove adequate.

Lastly, epoxies that use 2 or 3 to 1 hardener ratios or are considered 'fast' or moderately fast setting, or are simply 'cheap' may leave a waxy residue behind that a new layer of epoxy won't adhere to. It may be felt as waxy, or seen as 'orange peel' or 'birds eyes' if you have already layered new epoxy on it (you'll have to remove all the new epoxy if that's the case. This substance, called 'epoxy blush' must be removed by washing with soap and warm water, or vinegar, sanding may not get it all off. It is very easy to contaminate one or more batches of epoxy and you should be overly careful to avoid contaminating epoxy, or use a pre-mixed product. One of the things epoxy really really hates is silicon sealant.

I hope I don't scare you off using epoxy, it is wonderful stuff and well worth learning the rules about it's use. You can get a lot of epoxy info at the West site or the System Three site, they both also have (thin) printed manuals available.
DS2 #6408 "Desperado"
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Postby adam aunins » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:29 pm

I remember someone that reinforced their hull by cutting PVC pipe in half lengthwise and taping it to the hull (on the inside) and then glassing over it. That may be a good way to do it as long as you do not need any backing material to screw into.
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Postby GreenLake » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:44 am

Any hollow half round will do, but I'd take what I have lying around - there's no advantage in spending money to get a length of PVC tube for that, but if one is on your scrap pile, why not? (The main stiffening effect comes from the fiberglass/epoxy matrix resisting stretch - most of what the tube does is hold that fiberglass at some distance from the deck, so that any bending of the deck would have to stretch the fiberglass significantly. But the side fiberglass sidewalls would do that already, so in the end, most of what the tube does is just provide a form.)

I happen to use SystemThree epoxies exclusively (having gotten used to them and not keen on having to make all the experiences again with another brand). That said, they do have some nice properties, one of them is that that they are "blush free". I've never had to worry about the amine blush that jdoorly described so eloquently. (Soapy water, is indeed the solvent of choice to remove that surface layer if your epoxy brand is prone to that - vinegar happens to also be great for cleaning uncured or unmixed epoxy, it blocks the reaction as well).

The point about bonding to "green-stage" epoxy is well taken. All things being equal, it saves sanding and gives a stronger bond. I had pictured, though, that in gluing successive layers of wood, you always glue onto a fresh, not yet coated surface, so this particular problem would naturally not arise.

It does, though, when laminating glass. There I would probably try to lay up all the layers on a piece of wax paper and try to apply them in one piece. For anything that involves overhead work you have to have some backing material anyway and I think it's just as easy to do a single layer of glass as two or three - as long as you have a good strategy of how to put even pressure on it from some support below.

I fully agree with jdoorly about epoxy being well worth learning about. If you are meticulous about getting the ratios correct and mixing well (or using the cartridge that does it for you) and equally meticulous about keeping it off your skin (until cured), then you should have lots of fun with it.
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Fiber glass lay-up tricks

Postby adam aunins » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:02 pm

One of my other interest other than sailing and sailboats is home built aircraft so I spend a lot of time on the EAA website and picked up some tips and tricks that would also work on boats as well. Here is a link to a video that you guys may find interesting.

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=755195124001
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Postby GreenLake » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:24 pm

Adam. thanks for sharing a really interesting site.

Doing the layup "in the bag" as shown in the video is clearly an improvement over doing it just on wax paper, but why, tell me, does he not leave the outer plastic on until the epoxy has cured? It should still come off, and he would have avoided all the problems with lifting the wet laminate off the work piece (like you see at the end in the video).

For places where you want a really smooth surface, my preferred plastic is transparency foils. It will definitely not bunch or crinkle but it will conform to gentle curves (best for single, not compound curves).
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Postby Kleanbore » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:58 pm

I would use "peel ply" on the top of the second (outside) sheet. The plastic is easier to remove from the peel ply and you are ready to laminate more sheets if needed without sanding.
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Postby talbot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:21 pm

One thing that got skipped over early in this discussion was the type of wood. The oak sold at Lowe's in specialty woods is (or has been in every Lowe's I've visited) red oak. I use it because it is readily available and precut to convenient dimensions, but it is not really recommended for marine use. It rots easily in closed spaces (i.e., the bilge) and when used as cuddy reinforcement it will stain wherever any moisture seeps in around screw holes. (On the other hand, it tells you where your sealant is not working.)
I agree that for replacing a stringer, it is lighter (tho much more hassle) to manufacture a fibreglass part as per the discussion. (I use foam swim noodles cut in half for the cores.) If it is just a matter of backing a too-often drilled cuddy top, a sheet of 1/4" oak or marine plywood is fine. You can bend it fairly easily to the approximate curve, and then hold it in place with fendeer washers on the same fittings you are backing up. Again, this is a different purpose than laminating a surface for tensile strength.
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Postby GreenLake » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:11 pm

Bill hasn't been back - wonder what he ended up doing?

On the swim noodles. Great idea.
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