Sidestay back plate pulling through hull

[tadslippy]

Hi all. First post, but I think I read through the entire forum as we bought a DS this spring. She's an '84 25th anniversary edition - and our first boat. (Though I grew up sailing down south - mainly on Sunfish, Hobies, and larger cruisers)

We've been having a blast - exploring the Boston harbor on her nearly every weekend. Last weekend, humming along in medium air and a three foot chop crossing the channel, we heard a small slight pop under the hull. I assumed we'd just brushed up against a lobster buoy. On inspection back home I noticed the chainplate backup on the port stay had cracked the fiberglass, and was causing some separation in a small area between the hull and deck.

I assume this is the noise we heard, and that this is a new occurrence. The sail home went fine, and things still feel fairly solid when I put some weight on the stay. I don't even think we were taking any water on.

Questions are how worried should I be, and would getting a longer back plate (from DR Marine possibly?) be enough support?

What would you guys suggest as a the best course of action for someone not super comfortable with glass work, and anxious to safely get back on the water ASAP?

Here are a few pics: https://www.icloud.com/journal/#2;CAEQA ... 7646DA5726

Thanks - Jon

[K.C. Walker]

Jon, welcome!

Boston Harbor looks like pretty much a perfect place to sail a DaySailer. We picked up our niece in Boston last weekend. I could not believe the number of small sailboats on the Charles!

I would say that it would be a mistake to ignore it and keep on sailing. I would be tempted to make both a high-strength repair and increase the length of the backing plate. If you're not comfortable doing the fiberglass repair work, you could always have it professionally repaired. The actual amount of repair work would not be that large or costly.

[ChrisB]

Jon,

You should definitely repair this asap. The strength of the chainplate is now compromised and will eventually fail under load and allow the chainplate to pull all the way through. When that happens, the mast will come down and possibly bend in the process.

Check out jdoorly's post for the repair he made to his boat when the hull under the chainplate backer failed. It is posted under "Daysailer I only", topic "De-Masted". I would make the repair to both sides of the boat.

As for the fiberglass work, don't underestimate your abilities there. Fiberglass is very forgiving and even a repair that does not look very neat or professional is actually quite strong. But, as KC said, you are dealing with a small area so it shouldn't be too expensive to have it professionally repaired.

[GreenLake]

On inspection back home I noticed the chainplate backup on the port stay had cracked the fiberglass, and was causing some separation in a small area between the hull and deck.

Questions are how worried should I be, and would getting a longer back plate (from DR Marine possibly?) be enough support?

What would you guys suggest as a the best course of action for someone not super comfortable with glass work, and anxious to safely get back on the water ASAP?

Here are a few pics:...

Welcome to the forum, Jon!

First, the bad news: the link to your picture album doesn't work, at least not for me ("This album not available"). Why not post some pictures in your personal gallery here, click above under "Photos" to access, and see the "website info" section of the forum for instructions.

Now the good news: this should be eminently repairable, but, you must not ignore this issue. If the chain plate pulls out you could lose the mast.

Once we can view your pictures again, I or others here might be able to give you some more detailed suggestions. In the meantime, let me address your fear of glass work.

I agree with you it would be a mistake for you to try to attempt a fiberglass repair without experience or practice. However, I suspect you overestimate the difficulty. In addition, it's easy to get a bit of practice working with the material beforehand, without putting your boat at risk.

There's lots of good general information out on how to affect fiberglass repairs, but, if you're interested we can help you narrow that down to just the few steps appropriate to your situation.

If you haven't done any fiberglass work before, I would start with the suggestion that you get a bit more of all the materials that you'll need for the repair and that you simply practice to lay up a flat sheet of fiberglass laminate on a suitable surface (plastic covered work table).

This will give you the needed confidence that, by following the instructions, you have mixed the epoxy correctly, so that it cures successfully, and you'll get a feel of how the laminate behaves as you wet it out and as you remove the excess epoxy. Also, you'll be able to see how strong your sample is, and that will give you confidence in deciding how many layers you'll need for your repair.

Finally, a nice flat piece of fiberglass has it's own uses. It will be a bit flexible, so it would conform to the inside of the hull, and I've used such sheets as "patch" before. (It can be sanded and glued to a sanded spot of the hull with the same epoxy). Used that way, it might even form part of your final repair - but I couldn't suggest anything definite until I can view your pictures.

Anyway, to summarize, I'm confident that with the combined experience here we can probably "walk" you through a repair. Let us know, and we'll start by filling in some of the details glossed over here.

[GreenLake]

PS: now I can view the album again.

[tadslippy]

Thanks for the warm welcome and votes of confidence. I've now added a few pics of the damage to my gallery here: gallery/search.php?user_id=2000

So seems like the consensus is 'serious, but not difficult or expensive" - which is my second favorite kind of problem.

I'll look around the local hardware store etc for something I can fashion a larger backing plate out of (also reached our to DR to see if they have anything larger that would work), and plan on picking up fiberglass repair kit.

[GreenLake]

For fiberglass repair you're best off with using a good laminating epoxy. I can personally recommend SystemThree's Silvertip laminating epoxy, but West System, for example, is also a good source. The mixing ratio for these epoxies is typically 2:1 by volume. Some repair kits may have polyester resin, which I wouldn't recommend (it doesn't bond as strongly to existing glass on the hull).

The glass fabric and some mat you can buy by the foot in many places, or, packaged in small pre-cut sizes. For your purpose alternating mat and cloth would be useful, so get some of both.

For the rest of your "kit" you need lots of small cups marked to be used for measuring the amounts, lots of disposable gloves and wooden spatulas (stir sticks). And plastic spreaders, several.

Measuring very precisely, stirring well and completely w/o getting too many bubbles, and doing small batches are the standard secrets in getting epoxy to work well for you. Plus a nice warm place to cure. (If it's beyond "nicely warm" might chill the epoxy a bit, so it doesn't go off prematurely).

[jdoorly]

Jon, repairing the fiberglass, although not terribly difficult, does require bringing the the chain plate area back to original strength, and this is a hard thing to determine. I was uncomfortable doing that when my chainplate pulled thru the hull and I have lots of experience with epoxy and glass.

That is why I used a 9 inch long piece of 7/8 inch diameter stainless tube to replace the 1 inch backup. Now I won't argue you need 9 inches but I would argue not to go smaller than 3 to 4 inches, and add 2 more bolts ( for a total of 4) thru the deck, hull, and tube. This moves the stress away from the damaged area. I used 9 inch tubes because I had them and would have had to cut them to make them smaller, and cutting stainless is a pain.

Remove the existing backup plate, and by all means shove some thickened epoxy in the hole, but to try and repair with fiberglass layers will reduce the diameter of the half-round gunwhale causing the 7/8 tubing not to fit (it's a perfect fit BTW).

When mine broke it parted and lifted about 20 inches of deck which I had to patch with epoxy and fiberglass tape. I went ahead and did both sides at the same time. I don't have any worries about my chain plates now.

IMPORTANT: Don't overtighten the bolts. There is a gap between the deck and the hull half-rounds and the adhesive for the hull-deck joint is along the edge, so tightenting the bolts can cause the joint to fail and then, like me, you'll have to figure out how to re-glue that joint!

[Breakin Wind]

Greetings all,

Pulling this post back to the top of the heap to ask a follow-up question. I'm planning on replacing all of my stays, spreaders, chainplate screws and backing plates this winter, but as I'm browsing D&R for the parts, it looks like the backing plates they offer are quite short (at least in the picture) compared to what I removed from my boat this week.

In Jay's response posting in this thread he commented that a 3-4" replacement backing plate is probably a good size, but that's what I just took off my boat. What is generally the standard length of a headstem backing plate on DSII's?
Are the 4" pieces I have already oversized? (which would be great).

Anything anybody can offer here would be appreciated.
Thanks - Scott

[GreenLake]

Why are you removing the chain plates in the first place. I thought the main failure mode on these was pulling out, rather than breaking. If you were sailing on salt-water I could see that you might be worried about crevice corrosion, but if I read your posts right you're on a lake. In what shape are they? Any traces of surface oxidation, cracks, etc.?

[Salty Dog]

GL

About 25+ years ago I got an Idea I wanted to work on an old boat and fix it up for fishing. I put a front deck, new floor, and rod holder box in it and fiberglassed it all in.and got pretty good at F/G. I was buying my supplies from a man down the street that did fiberglass work on boats. He saw the boat and said it looked real good and offered me a job. I said I already had one. I got the mat and what we called resin and hardener from him. He would cut me off mat from a big roll and pour me resin and hardener from bulk that he had into smaller paint type cans that would seal.

I'm not sure what to buy if I just went to a store and looked for it. This epoxy that you are talking about is it the same stuff we were calling resin and hardener or is it a different or newer process. I could have to dabble a little sooner or latter and I'm sure that guy is gone now. So I was a little curious.

Thanks SD

[Breakin Wind]

Hi GL,

Thanks for the quick response.
To answer your question about why I'm removing the chain plates, actually I am replacing the chain plate screws but as a by-product of removing those screws, the chain plate comes off. I'm not intending to replace the chain plates.

The reason I'm replacing the complete set of stays, and chain plate screws is simply preventive maintenance. I've read enough postings on this board about someone hearing an unexpected "pop", a strong gust snaps something while on the water, an owner shows up at his boat and sees the mast laying over... My boat is almost 40 years old and from the cracks and bruises in the hull, does not appear to have been kept in a gentle and loving manner.

Although the screws, nuts and stays look ok to me (like I know what I'm looking for), I'd rather spend a little money now to insure I don't have to spend a lot of money later. To me, the phrase "passing the test of time" should not apply to parts under constantly changing temperature and stress factors.

As far as the backing plates go, that's more of an "replace the associated hardware" thing than anything else. As long as I have it apart, I may as well shore up anything that might go wrong as long as it's not a ridiculous cost . Like putting those bolts though the bow and headstay brace last winter. I didn't have any specific reason to expect the bow to tear off, but it is a small task to add the security of not having to worry about that one thing when I'd rather just be sailing during my short season. I don' expect a that a curved piece of stainless is going to break, I'm more concerned about the fiberglass lip thats holding it place, and if by distributing the load over a greater section of lip will reduce the potential for deck failure, I can't imagine why I shouldn't do it. But to my original question, if a normal chain plate backer is an inch or two long, and I already have a 4 inch backer, then I'm happy and will call it good enough.

Thanks

[GreenLake]

Scott,
I read too quickly and overlooked that you were talking about the backing plates. For those, I see even less need for replacement.

Taking everything off and re-embedding, and putting new bolts in should be fine as far as the chainplates are concerned. For the rest of the rigging, getting new shrouds and forestay on some regular schedule is probably wise. Same for turnbuckles. You can't really inspect those satisfactorily (except if strands have broken you know that the wire is toast, but by then, it's rather late...).

If you sail in high winds, lots of chop and salt water, you need to do this more frequently, than on freshwater or when you don't push your boat.

I managed to break two spreaders. One was original to the boat (or at least to the previous owner). And i broke the replacement the following week. They are not expensive, but at least in my case, having a brand-new part didn't improve anything (mine are apparently one of the less successful design variations that the DS experienced over time).

What I concluded is that my emergency repair, using cable ties and electrical tape, was a better fix than a replacement. So, after the second one broke, I repeated that repair and it's been on the boat for a full season. Just goes to show you.

Are you replacing the tangs on the mast as well? Make sure that the riveting job is as thorough as the original, if you don't have access to a qualified rigging shop to do it for you.

[GreenLake]

I'm not sure what to buy if I just went to a store and looked for it. This epoxy that you are talking about is it the same stuff we were calling resin and hardener or is it a different or newer process. I could have to dabble a little sooner or latter and I'm sure that guy is gone now. So I was a little curious.

If what you were using was mixed in a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio (or some other, similar ratio of whole numbers) then, yes, that was most likely epoxy. (Slightly sweet smell, compared to definite "chemical" stink for polyester).

One thing is, you don't need to go to any store. You can have stuff shipped to you. I'm partial to the System Three line of epoxy products. They've performed well for me and can be bought online. The shelf life for their epoxies is near infinite as far as I can tell, I have always been able to keep them around until I was able to use up the remainder on some other project. One nice thing about the System Three epoxies is that their laminating epoxy cures blush-free; you don't need to wash off an amine blush after curing and before sanding.

Other people make fine epoxies as well, but after I found a brand that worked for me, I've not seen a reason to try any others, so I can't give you any advice there.

If you've worked with epoxy before, you know that accuracy in the mixing ratio is a requirement, and that skin contact with uncured epoxy is a no-no (as is breathing in sanding dust, especially that from partially cured epoxy). And you know, of course, not to mix a quart of the stuff at one time only to see it catch fire from the internal heat of reaction.

[Breakin Wind]

Are you replacing the tangs on the mast as well? Make sure that the riveting job is as thorough as the original, if you don't have access to a qualified rigging shop to do it for you.

Hi GL

I thought about the tangs as well, but my concern is exactly what you said, I those rivets scare me, both from a drilling them out perspective as well as repacing them. I'd thought of redrilling, taping and screwing them back in, with maybe some thread lock or something, but I'm just not sure I dare go after them.

Thanks - Scott