Jib car tracks

[jeadstx]

I've thought about moving my jib cars to the top of the rail, but I can see a problem trying to sit there. I recently re-did my tracks as the wood backing was rotted and the tracks were coming loose. I was wondering if the Jib cars would work on the cuddy cabin top like they do on the Rhodes 19.

The cam cleats and fairleads are mounted on swivels.

John

[K.C. Walker]

John,

Hmm… That's an interesting idea to think about. It would be nice to get the jib controls out of the cockpit, as there really is no place that's out of the way. Being that where the jib tracks are originally are too far outboard for good close hauled performance and the use of Barber in hauls are used to improve on this. I wonder if putting tracks running athwart ships on the cuddy roof (A jib traveler?) would work, especially if they were raised on a "coaming" to get the sheeting angle correct .

It probably would not be possible to get it optimized for racing, but I wonder how effective it could be made for good cruising trim.

[jeadstx]

The picture I posted earlier was from a 1960's vintage Rhodes 19. Attached is a picture showing the current position. I think the R19 track acts as a barber inhauler. The Mariners have the jib tracks in the same place as the early R19.

John

[thomasglossop]

Alan,

As you can see, I removed old jib cars but left the tracks in place. Pull one screw and the old cars can be put back on if desired.

Love to see your installed photos.

Tom

[talbot]

Is that the Day Sailer under the cover behind the Rhodes? How much did you pay for that nice cover?
(I know. Different topic. But I had to ask.)
--Talbot

[jeadstx]

Those pictures are not of my boats. Just some examples I found of the R19 jib tracks. Wish I could afford expensive covers like that. I go with tarps that the Texas sun quickly destroys instead.

John

[Alan]

So many good choices, so little time to experiment...

K.C., Tom, John, much appreciation for the info. K.C., that's a good point about sitting out. And Tom, that's a good point about being able to switch the cars from one track to the other. And the cuddy-top setup that John photographed looks like it might be just the ticket.

After considerable considering and a fair amount of dithering, I think I'll get the cars and tracks from D&R and mount them on top of the coamings. That way when I get on the water this summer I can try it both ways.

Hopefully I'll get in enough water time this year to develop a sailing style - I don't really have one at this point. I suspect that with some more sailing time, I'll want to sit out just for the speed - I love it when my crew and I paddle a tandem kayak hard enough to throw a bow wave. In the meantime, low and slow will probably be best.

[GreenLake]

Alan, it's not just for the boat speed. At certain wind speeds, the heeling is much more easily managed by someone sitting out, unless you or your crew are unusually heavy. I've sailed with crew one season where our combined weight was enough to allow us to handle 20+ knts of gust without sitting out. And I've sailed with bantam weight helmsmen where I had to sit on the coaming or even hike in winds much below that to keep the boat level.

Being able to sit forward is great for the fore-aft balance of the boat, because otherwise you are dragging your transom through the water, making it act like a giant brake.

When sailing solo, the point where the choice arrives between sitting out and having to dump air comes sooner of course, and well before the transition from "pleasant" sailing to "struggling for survival". I remember one pleasant evening, sitting out on the coaming (just sitting, not hiking), with the sails trimmed "just so" and the tiller held by a bungee -- all the way across the lake in a gentle summer breeze; everything quiet, lights all around the shore, the boat rounding up in the gusts and falling off in the lulls, while I watched the moon rise (or something like that).

So, sitting out isn't necessarily something that I associate with stressful sailing, quite the opposite in fact, and I'd never dream of blocking that by permanently installing some hardware where I like to sit

[Alan]

Hmmmm. I'll just go sit in my corner and ponder some more...

OK, how about this: Mounting the cars and tracks on the outside of the coamings directly opposite their current locations on the inside? That might put the cleat/fairlead in a not-so-great position, but could you use barber haulers to compensate?

My crew will be a lot happier if I can locate the jib cleats away from what she regards as seatbacks, hence my deep interest in the subject.

[GreenLake]

On the quality of life issue, have you considered a folding cushion with a seatback for her? That might "fix" the "leaning against hardware" problem. Assuming that she would sit on the windward side at least some of the time, she would already have settled the issue of sitting either forward or aft of the fairlead position, because otherwise she would have had to grow a feed-through for the sheet.

If a cushion solves the problem then you can stop.

If not, and you consider pondering the track location, consider that, if/when you (ever) sail by yourself, you'll need to be able to operate the jib-sheet on the leeward side of the boat while sitting at or on the windward coaming...

If you can mount a track on the outside, perhaps with oversized blocks, so that the blocks can "stand up" far enough for the sheet to clear the coaming, that might work, but in that case, note that the angle of pull has only a moderate upward component, so that the block would not rise very high... you would still not like to sit on the block, but the track next to it might be better positioned relative to your bottom than if you mounted it on top.

Your guess that barber inhauls would make the inboard-outboard sheeting position less sensitive is probably correct - in fact, you might see a slight improvement downwind with a wider sheeting. I usually suggest crossing the inhauls so that they can be operated more easily from the windward side, but if you never sit out you can lead them near each other to a spot above the middle of the cuddy opening.

On my boat, I used cam cleats with a fairlead mounted at 90 degrees to the direction of the barber hauler. The tails hang down for an easy tug, that works well for both seating positions. The other alternative is V or jam cleats mounted on top of the cuddy, but then you are pulling across and you should figure out a placement that works for you in all positions. Normally, you need to operate the hauler opposite from where you sit, so its tail has to somehow get to where you are with a direction of pull that doesn't require contortions or leaning far into the boat when you are balancing on the coaming.

[Alan]

The new jib cars and rails from D&R just arrived on my porch this evening.

I recommend highly, at least if you've got the stock DSII setup. The parts are not-gonna-break substantial.

D&R back-ordered them from Ronstan and then sent them on to me. Debbie called to let me know they were on the way. The price was better than I would have gotten from Rostan directly, and the human customer service was, as always, impressive.

Now, where to mount them? Had a chat with the crew at the dinner table (it's a pretty good deal, having a crew who gets involved while you play with sailboat parts during dinner). I think they'll be on top of the coamings, for now anyway. Maybe far enough aft that I can sit out next to the bulkhead, or maybe I'll invent a perch so I can sit out above the cleats. Hmmm.

Tonight to dream, tomorrow to tinker...

[GreenLake]

Alan,

the fore-aft position of your jib-tracks is not something that you can freely decide on - not if you want correct sail trim.

If you move the tracks up, they need to come forward at the same time, to maintain the sheeting angle. Assuming that your original tracks were correctly positioned.

[talbot]

I'm pretty sure that when O'Day moved the jib tracks up to the coaming on the DS III, they put them right up against the bulkhead. I tried to find a photo on the DS III forum, but couldn't. I'm travelling this week, but I think I have an old DS III print brochure in a file cabinet at home.

The point is, Greenlake is correct. If the jib is to function as designed, the sheet has to trim at the angle built into the sail. As I recall, an imaginary line from the lead through the clew should intersect the luff more than halfway between tack and head. Having mis-mounted jib blocks in the past, I know that the big effect of a lead mounted aft is when you are trying to sail into the wind. You totally stretch out the foot without being able to trim in the rest of the sail. You might compensate by always using barber leads, but then you have added in some cumbersome rigging that is often in the way when you don't want it.

Remember that this conversation started around the idea of making the cockpit cleaner and more crew-friendly. If the top priority is being able to sit on the coaming by the bulkhead, then the original seatback-to-centerboard rigging is probably optimal as is.

[Alan]

http://iheartodays.com/files/model_day_ ... w_680h.jpg

For what it's worth, I found the above in the DS III section of the I Heart O'Days website.

And of course now that the parts are here, the rain we've all been wishing for has arrived, so I can't do any real-world testing. Arrggghh...

[GreenLake]

Jib trim: to extend @talbot's comment:

If you pull at a flat angle (fairlead mounted high or back), you pull the foot, but the top of the sail is allowed to twist off. (The leech of the sail does not have as much tension as the foot and the wind blows the top of the sail further out). That spills wind at the top. For low wind (<6 knt true wind) the flow of the wind over the water is laminar (like a layer cake - each layer having a different speed, increasing as you go up). The apparent wind (wind as seen from the boat, including the "head wind" from the moving boat) also has the different speeds, but as the headwind component is the same, the angle of the apparent wind is different for each layer. At the bottom, the headwind dominates, and the apparent wind is more forward, so the bottom of the jib needs to be sheeted in more, at the top, the true wind dominates and the apparent wind is more aft, so a wider angle would be better. With the right twist in the jib you can trim the sail so that it has the correct angle for each layer. So: light wind, big twist.

When you are sailing in stronger winds, the flow of the wind is turbulent. Instead of a layer cake you get nearly the same wind speed at all heights. That means you want to take out the twist. You do that by pulling on the leech (i.e. pulling down), and you get that by moving your fairlead forward (or theoretically also down - except nobody mounts them that way). At the steeper angle, more of the pull is pulling at the leech and the sail resists twisting off at the top.

At yet higher winds, you can add twist again in an effort to depower the jib.

Now, for the DS you can add "barber haulers" that pull the sheet sideways (in towards the centerline). By pulling the sheet in about 9' (value from memory), you noticeably improve the pointing angle of the boat (in the middle of the wind range, >10kts, and going upwind). There should be entire threads here that discuss them.

Anyway, to know that you have a good trim, the easiest method is to by some tell-tales and stick three sets on your jib, about a foot behind the luff, and at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 of the height of the sail. If the twist is right, for the conditions, all three sets should fly the same.

You head into the wind until the inner one of each set starts rising up. That's the course for which the sail is trimmed. (Once you reach that point, you continue to make adjustments to your course by steering away from whichever side the tell-tales start rising up). If the boat doesn't point as high as you think it should, increase the sheet tension, (but not so hard that there's a "crease" along the bottom of the sail) or pull harder on the barber haulers (but no further than about 9').

If you don't want to sail that high on the wind, use less sheet tension and no barber hauler until the tell-tales fly on your new course. All these adjustments are usually made based on the lowest set of tell-tales.

To know that you have correct trim (correct twist), check that the upper sets work the same, if not, move the fairlead forward or back.

Don't use the barber haulers in low winds, pointing high doesn't work in those conditions.

That's about it. Somebody will be along if I forgot something.

With the tell-tales, the trick is to find the course where one or the other flies up with small deviation - if you've mis-trimmed your sail very far, you can get them both to fly, but you are spilling wind. If in doubt, head into the wind until the jib starts to luff and then fall off just a bit while watching your tell tales.

Once you've figured out how you can point the highest, ease everything off just a bit, because the DS doesn't like to point that high. If you persist, you'll just slip sideways through the water