Replacement Carbon Fiber Mast?

[K.C. Walker]

Well, it was fun speculating about a carbon fiber mast. I just picked up a replacement mast from Chris who was parting out a boat that he has advertised here. Thank you Chris! Also thanks to Bob for pointing out the ad. And… thanks to those for indulging my fantasy, in whatever sci-fi way.

Of course, I will have to keep this idea in the back of my mind for later.

[talbot]

I am sooooo disappointed! I was really counting on a month- long discussion of another exotic modification fantasy to go along with my imaginary UPS, Torqeedo, and full-batten Mylar sails.

[K.C. Walker]

Funny thing that you should mention the full batten mainsail… when I talking to Tony at Forte, he mentioned that if I was going to a carbon fiber mast it would be the perfect time to consider going to a larger sail plan. He said with the lighter mast, that is more gust responsive, he could engineer the mast to take a larger mainsail, and that it would be as easy or easier to sail. Of course, that sounded pretty good… But even more expenses!

I figure that right now, having a mast to go sailing is way more important than thinking about the modification. I figure the mast that I purchased will be worth as much as I paid for it later. And, now I can think about the carbon fiber mast over the winter, as armchair sailing. So, don't discount a month-long discussion just yet.

[TIM WEBB]

Month long discussion?!?!?!

Didn't the core project thread last for like a year, and set all kindza records?!?!?!

Just kiddin' ya KC!

[K.C. Walker]

Well, it appears I'm not the only one fantasizing about carbon fiber masts, so the discussion continues. In the article "Saving the DaySailer" in the latest DaySailer quarterly, Kevin Williams suggests that the DaySailer Association should allow carbon fiber masts in the rules for racing.

He stated that carbon fiber masts are less expensive than tapered aluminum masts, and also more durable and repairable. And, that the tapered aluminum masts were around $1000. Even though I'm not racing, I would love a carbon fiber mast for less than $1000. He said that he bought a mast for his international 14 for $800. That would be on the edge of temptation, for me. So, if the DaySailer fleets adopted carbon fiber masts, would the price come down?

[GreenLake]

I found that article very interesting as well.

The problem is that while it's cheaper when you need a new mast, it's an "unnecessary" expense if you have a race-ready boat. However, I'm grateful to see discussions like this, because if extrusion masts become a bottleneck in maintaining a class that would not be good.

[talbot]

Yes, it would be a burden for racing sailors to face a $1,000 upgrade to stay competitive. But serious racers spend more than that on sails for the same reason, not to mention modifications such as shaped rudders and hull refinishing.

On the plus side for racers and cruisers might be a lower center of gravity. I'm not sure how much weight is saved in the CF mast, but to keep the standard 575 lbs overall, that weight would probably be added to the hull for racers (and certainly for cruisers). The boat might stand up better in strong winds, making for more exciting racing and safer cruising.

Actually, I'm just working on my arguments on why this is a good idea, just in case I have to someday come up with an explanation for why the @#$% there's a message on the phone from Southern Pacific, telling me to pick up a 22' long package at the depot.

[Baysailer]

Interesting, I didn't realize that the carbon fiber masts seen on some other classes were less expensive and more reliable.

I also sail a Rhodes 19 and that class is having these arguments on the other side of the boat. Used keels for Rhodes are becomming scarce and new cast iron ones are expensive and often overweight to boot so they have extensively researched, developed and tested a composite keel that meets alll the requirements of shape, size, weight, center of gravity, moment of inertia, etc. They did all this from within the class resources. Now 2-3 years later it's down to a membership vote. There's a paper on it accessible through their website if interested.

[GreenLake]

Talbot, you a good point about the cost of a mast vs sails.

A CF mast would not only be lighter, it would respond differently, possibly allowing you to carry a bigger sail as well.

At that point, the discussion moves of from simply having a cheaper alternative to aluminum extrusion masts.

What can't be done is somehow make the CF be fully equivalent with existing masts. Adding weight would not even begin to cover the differences.

[GreenLake]

Looks like the kind of upgrade the Rhodes 19 class is designing could at least be done "in place", that is, you could have a few boats upgraded and not change the nature of a fleet. Afraid that won't work for a CF mast, so you would either need to divide the class into DS-CF and DS-AL or find some other way of managing the transition.

At some point, the fiberglass will outlive the aluminum masts, but will we be around

[talbot]

I had not thought the CF masts would be longer lasting or easier to repair. Can someone explain? Can you reglass a damaged CF mast the same way you fix a dinged hull?

[K.C. Walker]

It is an interesting dilemma for racing. Because the rules for the DaySailer class are not a strict one design, there would likely be an arms race to go to carbon fiber if it were allowed. Mike Gillum switched to a tapered Ballenger mast but said that his non-tapered Allspar was not slow. He said the way the mast bend was it kind of freaked him out but the results were not bad.

If a carbon fiber mast just had an incremental advantage, or even a perceived advantage, one would need one for racing. For the day sailing crowd, like myself, it would be a very nice rig to have, and I think the advantages would be more than just perceived, however I would guess most people would not justify the expense. The actual sailing performance difference, I think would be hard to justify, unless one went to a bigger rig. Being able to step the mast with one hand behind your back… now that would be easier to justify.

[GreenLake]

If aluminum replacements truly were to become unaffordable, then you would have the opposite problem of having difficulties (increasing over time) to maintain race-ready fleets. That's the dilemma.

[K.C. Walker]

I think the dilemma for the DSA is how to keep the DaySailer appealing as a race boat in a competitive market. The inexpensive alternative, if that's what would help, would be to outlaw the tapered aluminum mast. The straight section mast is almost as fast, is readily available, and reasonably inexpensive, but that doesn't help at this point when racing. If going to a carbon fiber mast gave the perception that the DaySailer was more up to date as a race boat, that "might" add to interest in the class.

Kevin Williams indicates in his article that finding "desirable" racing hulls and tapered masts are two of the major stumbling blocks for maintaining a fleet. Neither of which are being made in this country now, nor have been for many years. Pretty much everything else can be obtained.

Cape Cod Shipbuilding pointed out that they basically cannot sell new racing boats, and very few cruising boats. This points out that the supply of used boats meets the demand of the marketplace, both for racing and for cruising, at least so far. The easy question for the DSA is, what would it take to get people to buy new racing boats? The answer would be a boat that is competitive at the same price as refurbishing an old boat, and of course, get all the top racers to use the new boat.

It seems that this post of mine bridges to current topics...

[GreenLake]

To add to your bridge: Participating in one design racing isn't even an available option to all DSA members....