Leak Repair

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Leak Repair

Postby Interim » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:31 am

I salvaged my boat yesterday, (see http://daysailer.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=4490), and have a repair question (I don't know what this part is, so please forgive not putting it under the repair thread for now).

When I pulled the boat up on the ramp, water was pouring out of the cockpit drain hole, the self-bailer, and the hull plug. It was also coming out at the junction of the hull (transom) and the rear deck at the stern quarters. (I don't know what this junction is called). If water can come out, I presume it can go in. Inspection of this junction along the hull shows cracks the sealant, which looks like some kind of putty.

Should I spray some kind of sealant on this, or does this require a major operation?

--john
1979 DSII
Interim
 
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Re: Leak Repair

Postby GreenLake » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:52 am

You are forgiven and I moved it for you. :D

Now, "spray some kind of sealant" is usually the wrong answer, however, I'm not quite sure what area you are referring to.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Leak Repair

Postby Interim » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:59 am

I know a picture would be more helpful, but I don't have one handy at the moment.

My view of the construction is that we have a single deck piece that lays over a single hull piece. The deck curves down and outside of the hull at the overlap, and there is a space between the two pieces--about an inch or so--that is filled with something. This filler is only visible from below, because of the downward curve in the deck piece.

If this doesn't make sense, let me know and I will get a picture posted this evening.

--john
1979 DSII
Interim
 
Posts: 141
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Location: Nebraska

Re: Leak Repair

Postby GreenLake » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:15 pm

Ah, so you think it's the hull-deck joint?

On the single-hull DS1 that I have, I would consider adding a layer of glass from the inside the repair of choice for a failing joint. On a double hull, like you have (is it a DSII?) that would require cutting access ports etc.

Now when boats are manufactured with double hulls, there's indeed some sealant that goes in there, usually something that acts both as caulk and sealant. Sikaflex and 3M both market a range of such compounds.

They are not sprayed, but applied with a caulk gun or smeared with a spreader.

First step would be to investigate. Can you manually separate or wedge apart the joint at any place? Is the failure localized or does it extend? Don't be afraid to stress this a bit.

If it's a very localized failure and the rest of the joint is still being held firmly by the original adhesive, then you could probably use any type of marine caulk. Otherwise, you might be better off with something that is also an adhesive.

The tricky part will be how to apply the compound, but the goal should be to generously apply it to the place where hull and deck meet, not just cosmetically on the outside. You may have to clean off failed compound first. You'll know when you've investigated that.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Leak Repair

Postby jeadstx » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:37 pm

My boat when sailing is fairly well sealed except for water squirting thru the centerboard uphaul line hole, into the cuddy and draining into the cockpit. Capsized however, water got in the hull. When I capsized in June 2012, the boat stayed on it's side and took on water until the centerboard was on the surface of the water. Once righted, the boat was swamped, but still afloat due to my flotation (the boat was heavily loaded with camping gear and supplies). Because we could only beach the boat afterwards, all we could do was bail and pump as much water out of the bilge as possible. Sailing the final leg of the event (20 to 25 miles) the next day I could feel water sloshing in the bilge, but no additional water seemed to be getting. Once on the trailer, the bilge drain plug (on transom centerline below waterline) was opened and the boat drained the remaining water that was in the bilge. I think that water got in the bilge from places along the hull deck joint where it is not sealed like it was when new. I know some water can get into the bilge from the inspection ports if the seals are bad. Some boats (fortunately not mine) get water in the bilge thru the icebox and the centerboard bolt (if it has one) or gaps in the centerboard trunk.

It sounds like from your description that you have a leak along the hull/deck joint (area where deck curves over onto the curve hull upper part). I have some leaks along there also. The older DS1's have a rub rail on a channel holding the deck and hull together. My DS2 has places that the previous owner did some bad repairs to on the hull/deck joint.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Leak Repair

Postby Interim » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:41 pm

yes! the hull-deck joint.

I don't think I have any separation, but I will check it all the way around before proceeding. And then I will go after the marine chaulk, as suggested.

Thanks very much.

--john
1979 DSII
Interim
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:40 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: Leak Repair

Postby Interim » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:53 pm

John--

I'm sure I take a little water through the centerboard, as they all seem to (except those retrofitted). I know I take a little from a hairline crack on the centerline of the hull, a little forward of the mast. That will find a solution this winter. But this issue of the hull-deck joint is a new source of water.

I'm glad you mentioned capsizing; I was starting to think I was the only one. We were in a similar situation with swamping. I think between water getting into the bilge, and the cuddy filling with water, our problem got worse. At one point we had it righted, but the bow went down a little, and all that "movable ballast" went forward, and the boat nosed under and tipped again. Sealing a couple of these leaks will help. I don't normally sail with the rails in the water, but it happens. The other thing we're thinking of is having the hatches on the cuddy if it is a rough day. This won't stop the flow of water, but it will slow it and that might leave us in a better situation if we can get it back up.

And yes, Greenlake, it is a DSII (1979). Sorry; I should have mentioned that up front.

Regards,

--john
1979 DSII
Interim
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:40 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: Leak Repair

Postby GreenLake » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:51 pm

John, check out whether there is any type of foam in the flotation spaces under the seats. The idea is, if you cram those spaces full of pool noodles, then the boat will float, even if some water gets between the hulls. That's what the other John did, and his boat stayed afloat (albeit rather low in the water). A tight hull is better, of course.

For the hairline, grinding off some fiberglass (in a V shape) and then rebuilding with new fiberglass is the accepted method. Preferably using epoxy. Which then needs to be painted for UV protection. Gelcoat will or will not stick to epoxy, the opinions vary: some say it's an issue of mixing the epoxy using perfect proportions, others say the type of epoxy makes a difference - SystemThree Resins sells SB-112, an epoxy that's actually intended to be finished with gelcoat for building surfboards - coulz use that for your repair).
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Re: Leak Repair

Postby Interim » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:09 am

Upon inspection, I found that the hull-deck joint is well sealed all the way around, except for at the transom, where it seems completely separated (I can deflect the transom all the way across). This is both a leak and structural problem, I would guess.

Greenlake, you suggested above that I use an adhesive/sealant (Sikaflex/3M). Is that appropriate here, or do I need something more?

--john
1979 DSII
Interim
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:40 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: Leak Repair

Postby GreenLake » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:45 am

Without pictures I can't fully visualize what the configuration might be like at the point where you have the leak.

Where you have the normal hull-deck joint there's a reasonably sized flat area where the two parts are touching (overlapping). In that kind of situation, an adhesive sealant should work really well.

If, on the other hand, you have two flat parts meat edge-on at right angles, a different solution might be more appropriate. I feel that without a more detailed description (or pictures) of how your transom meets the deck it's difficult to advise you, esp. as I apparently don't have a boat myself that looks like yours.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Leak Repair

Postby Interim » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:42 am

ha! Well, it may be that my descriptions aren't very good :)

I will take some pix this weekend and post them so we can have a more informed exchange.

Thanks for your note on the rivets. Glad to know that I was on the right track about the corrosion, and that there is an easy response.

Regards,

--john
1979 DSII
Interim
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:40 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: Leak Repair

Postby GreenLake » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:30 am

If your transom looks like the one in this ad http://sailingtexas.com/201009/soday17139.html then it looks like the deck forms a lip over it for about an inch-wide strip of overlap. First I would check whether the overlap actually is as big as it could be. Possibilities include the transom not extending all the way to the deck, so the overlap falls short.

If there's sufficient overlap you should be able to glue these parts back together. I think you should be able to even use epoxy glue - after running some sandpaper in the gap and cleaning it to get out any grease. A high quality epoxy glue (not the $5 dual syringes from the H/W store) would work - you need something that's not runny. There's an all-purpose epoxy paste that's sold under the MarineTex brand - it's not primarily a glue, but given the large area should work pretty well - the biggest challenge would be to get it applied to the inside of the crack.

Epoxy glue in the caulk-gun cartridge from SystemThree or WestSystem if you can get it would work.

Or you could use an adhesive sealant like 3m 5200 (or perhaps a slightly less aggressively bonding formulation not sure about product number, but in the 4000's) or competitors' similar products. (Don't use a silicone sealant, like bathroom caulk).

If there's any hidden defect, like the transom is too short to overlap properly, then you might need to glass over the joint to get it to hold. Aesthetically the choice would be to work from the inside, but drilling the access ports is probably not practical. Let's hope that you do have sufficient overlap, but you can always put a strip of fiberglass over the outside of the joint. That would make a strong and secure connection, but would be a visible repair.
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Re: Leak Repair

Postby Interim » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:58 pm

I put a picture of the transom in my gallery, but I can't figure out how to post it in a reply. I looked through the FAQs, but didn't see anything. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

1693

--jf

GL: I just copied the BBC code from the gallery - you can also click the "Gallery" button when editing a post - try editing this one to see what I did.
1979 DSII
Interim
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:40 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: Leak Repair

Postby GreenLake » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Is the image upside down? With the gap on the left?
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Re: Leak Repair

Postby Interim » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:23 am

Yes and yes. I lost my opportunity to rotate the image when I uploaded it, and couldn't find the button again. Thanks for posting it in; not sure I should be on a boat if I can't navigate the bulletin board :)

What you identify is the gap (without pressure). If I push on the hull, that separation runs the length of the transom. I see what I need to grind out, and refill with one of the adhesives you suggested above.

My hope is to figure out how to flip the boat and get it in my garage for the winter. I've read a few of the posts about getting it in sawhorses, but to turn it over and get it in the garage may simply require 4 or 5 strong bodies.

--john
1979 DSII
Interim
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:40 am
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