halyard decisions/help

[klb67]

I want to address my halyards this winter. The standing rigging on the boat was replaced by the prior owner, and I'm pretty confident the wire portion of my halyards was also replaced and is not original - the wire is in perfect shape, and it also seems to be about 2 feet too long (edit - it looks like the main halyard wire is supposed to be 23 feet). The prior owner had used some wire clamps to shorten it up, but I don't think he ever sailed it that way (he had also installed a mast extension to get the boom higher, so I was told by his widow when I bought the boat). I undid his improvements but left the halyards alone until this winter. I've removed the clamps and the wire is still fine - at least he didn't fold the wire. The 3 strand rope portion might be original - it has started to untwist in places, is shorter than I'd like, and needs to be replaced.

My boat is dry moored on the trailer at my lake all summer. I use the main halyard as a topping lift while moored.

The easy button seems to be to get a set of rope halyards from D&R. I'll be calling them soon. I have a few questions I thought I'd ask the board:

Will the original sheeves accept a rope halyard? Is there any concern about using rope halyards when they'll be out in the elements all summer? I like the size of the 3 strand rope - I assume it's 5/16 (I don't have access to it right now). I also assume the rope halyards are smaller - perhaps 1/4"? Has anyone been dissatisfied handling the rope halyards? My other alternative is to shorten up the wire and just replace the rope portion - likely saving a bit of money. I didn't mind the wire halyards, but might prefer line - who knows.

I have the original cleats on the top of the cuddy to cleat the halyards and will probably stick with those for now. If I get sufficient use out of the boat this year, I may start some of those types of upgrades.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

[ChrisB]

The sheeves should accept a rope halyard (provided keep the diameter reasonable). My boat has had all rope halyards since I bought it in 1992. Its always been stored outside, albiet under a cover. I just replaced my halyards a few years ago. I believe I went with 3/8" and I have no problems with the rope binding in the sheeves. Keep in mind, larger sailboats have the halyards exposed to the sun all the time so a good quality rope will last many years. Go with a good quality, low streatch dacron. I prefer braided rope for halyards and sheets; smoother on the hands.

I'm not a fan of a topping lift on a fractional rig though. When I dry stored my boat (mast up) with a tarp over the boom, I built a boom support to hold up the end of the boom rather than using a topping lift. I was concerned about a topping lift giving the mast a preset bend because there is no forestay at the masthead. For occasional use it shouldn't be a problem but with a heavy canvas over the boom I didn't want to risk it.

[seandwyer]

Hey, There,

You should be fine with all rope halyards as long as you choose the right kind of rope. I bought my boat with the original 40 year old wire / rope halyard setup and used it that way for a season before replacing. The reason I replaced them was because the main came undone from the wire one day and I took that as a sign. The rope part of both halyards are now my dock lines--that rope is long lasting stuff!

I too had problems with the wire portion of the halyards being too long. I believe the issue here is actually that, over time, the rope stretches which effectively makes the wire too long by relation. Modern rope of the right construction doesn't stretch nearly as much as the stuff from back when the older O'Days were built--which is also why you can use an all rope halyard now, but not back in the day (or should I say, "...back in the O'Day?").

As for size and type of rope--I bought my main halyard from Rudy. The size and length are perfect and the snap shackle is better than what I would have come up with on my own. I guess this is to say that, if you buy from him, you know you're getting the right thing. I actually didn't buy the jib halyard from him. I made that one myself out of similar quality line, but if I had it to do over I think I would just order both from Rudy.

Sheeves--The original ones should accept the rope if you buy them from Rudy or use the same diameter, but the question is condition...just inspect them really well and make the call. I had to replace mine due to damage. Years of freezing all winter and baking all summer broke the plastic down enough that the wire part of the halyard chewed them up pretty good. I was surprised how awful they were given the fact that they still worked. This is an easy process--just buy the sheeves and some stainless clevis pins long enough to go through the mast head casting and of a diameter to allow the sheeves to run easily on them. Get pins with holes drilled on the ends to put rings in like you use on your standing rigging. Don't bother with the rivets that are probably holding your sheeves in place now. Pins make taking things apart so much easier!

If you're still using cheek blocks at the bottom of the mast, inspect those sheeves as well and replace as needed. When I did this I decided they should be replaced too, so I bought a couple of cheek blocks from Rudy, but never did install them. 6 years later and I'm still successfully using the old damaged looking ones without any trouble. Sometimes its hard to know how much life this stuff has left in it, and sometimes it surprises you--good and bad

[klb67]

Thanks Chris and Sean. I think I have read every halyard post on here and recall seeing your previous posts on halyards. Glad to hear you are happy with the rope halyards from D&R.

My masthead sheaves look fine, surprisingly. The sheaves on the lower cheek blocks, however, have degraded and are chipped, so I planned to get new ones from D&R. I briefly contemplated a significant upgrade to the Harken 140 block with cam cleat from Intensity (anyone have those?) but decided to save that expense for another season.

Sean - I didn't follow you on the cause of the halyards being too long. I don't see line stretch as the issue. To me, unless the wire somehow stretches, that would stay the same length. I also am pretty confident that the wire shouldn't be long enough to come through the sheaves at the bottom on the mast. Unless somehow my boom is too high, which would make the head of the main sail too high up on the mast and shorten the distance from the main halyard shackle over the sheaves and down the mast to the cheek blocks such that the wire reaches that far...I don't even know if that's possible. I had just assumed and chalked it up to one of the several things that were "customized" on my boat that I needed to undo. I guess I should measure my wire halyards to confirm whether they are longer than factory lengh, as I originally assumed, or whether they are factory length (and if the latter, then I have another issue going on that I need to figure out, why the wire halyard would be long enough to reach and have to be drawn through the lower cheek block to raise the main).

I guess I should confim my assumption - can anyone confirm that the original wire halyard should not be long enough to allow the rope/wire junction to be drawn through the lower cheek block? (my junction there is a loop in the wire and a knotted rope halyard, which I doubt was factory).

[jeadstx]

I replaced my halyards with all line last year before going on the Tx200. When I got my boat in 2006 it still had the original half 3-strand line/half wire halyards still on it. I originally replaced the line part with 1/4" dacron line recommended for halyards. The original 3-strand line is suppose to be 1/4", but seems to appear larger with age. The new line attached to the wire part worked good, except with age the wire had stretched to the point that the wire part was coming thru the check blocks and occasionally snagging on the block. I began to get concerned about the amount of stretch in the wire and the fact it was beginning to kink more. I had read someplace at one time, don't remember where, that they originally had gone with the half wire/half line to reduce the amount of stretch in the halyard, but that the new lines made for halyards have very low stretch and do the same or better than the original halyards. So I went to the Sailboat Shop in Austin for a recommendation on the best 1/4" line to use for my halyards and that is what I got. The mast head sheeves have no problems with the halyards. My check blocks at the base of the mast probably need to be replaced as well, but they are in fair shape for now.

I also use an adjustable topping lift while sailing which is a separate line (3/32" wire) coming off a tang I attached to the mast head. I keep the boat on the trailer at my house when not sailing, so the mast is down most of the time. The topping lift works well when I sail the Tx200 for 5 days.

John

[Baysailer]

For the halyards I'm using Marlow Excel Racing and I know others have had good luck with NE Ropes finish line which is quite a bit cheaper. Intensity has it pre cut. You can't splice finish so need a knot.

http://www.intensitysails.com/gesaforda.html

Here's a halyard knot I've been using for a few years now and its worked well for me, compact strong and neat.

http://jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/1239

Fred

[GreenLake]

That knot seems to be the one shown as "halyard hitch" on animatedknots.com
http://www.animatedknots.com/halyard/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Alternatives: on my jib I didn't bother with a shackle for the longest time and just tied a buntline hitch each time (a buntline hitch is different from a halyard hitch, but equally compact, and equally self-cinching). Recently, I changed to 1/8" Amsteel ending in an integral soft shackle (instructions on http://L-36.com) on one end and splice to XLS braided on the other. The Amsteel takes the place of the original wire portion, in other words. I did that mainly because it looked like a fun splicing project. The soft shackle attaches to a short loop of rope ending in a toggle (diamond knot). Advantage: very low weight aloft; disadvantage: with no shackle, the halyard is liable to go up the mast if I let go while connecting it.

On another dinghy, I acquired a setup with FSE Robline dinghy control sheet (3mm, or 4mm can't be sure) for the main halyard.It's incredibly thin, but holds plenty. Less smooth than Amsteel, it holds well in the cam cleats, so no need for a "tail" of braided. It's not as knobbly as the finish line, but equally non-spliceable. Might have marginally less air resistance because of its smooth cover.

Modern lines are so strong that dimensions are mostly determined by the need to handle them, not the breaking strength. That said, it pays to go for the lightest/thinnest halyard setup, because it's a good idea to reduce weight aloft: because of the long lever arm even a little bit of extra weight makes itself felt. Dyneema is as strong as wire of the same dimension, and not having a set of bulky halyards go up the mast also improves the aerodynamics (or affects them not as badly as otherwise).

[K.C. Walker]

Actually, I believe that the wire rope is intended to go through the sheaves at the bottom of the mast. These were designed before modern low stretch rope existed. The idea was that the three strand was stretchy so you wanted to minimize that in the halyard when the sails are hoisted.

You will notice that the three strand splice is small enough to fit through the sheaves and the wire loop is constructed with a crimp on that also goes through the sheave. You will also notice that when the sails are hoisted the wire loop comes pretty close to the deck horned cleats, as it was intended. I don't think you'd have much luck stretching that wire. Of course, that is probably why the sheaves at the bottom of the mast look more abused.

I replaced the wire section on my halyards with 1/8" Amsteel Dyneema of the same length when the wire developed meat hooks. I spliced a loop about the same size after pushing it through the old splice in the three strand and reused that part of the halyard. I actually use the loop to attach my adjustable jib halyard tensioner, which is fashioned after Phil Roots set up, so I wanted the loops.

With Green Lake's encouragement I also switched over to soft shackles and they work great in both the halyards and attaching the jib sheet.

[GreenLake]

I should probably think about halyard tensioning setup for the jib. With an integral wire luff in the jib, halyard tension takes the place of forestay tension to define the luff shape. At least I think that's how it's supposed to work - the original jib I purchased with the boat was not set up that way.

Another place I've replaced a wire with Amsteel is on my trailer winch. In fact, that's what got me started - the shop flatly refused to sell me replacement for the galvanized wire and pointed me to the 3/16" Amsteel in their rope section. I could probably lift both boat and trailer (with tow vehicle) on that rope, but seeing how easy it was to do an eye splice was an "eye opener" (pun intended).

For that application, it's fine to be a bit over-dimensioned, gives additional safety factor for chafe and UV degradation, for halyards, I prefer going thinner at the risk of replacing them perhaps a bit more often. Or I might go to one of the ropes discussed here, which have covers.

[klb67]

Thanks all for the info. I'll likely get the rope halyards. I drilled my cheek block rivets out this weekend and they are off and ready for installation of the new blocks. Only a few short months until barn day to get the boat out of its hibernation. At least I kept the mast here for these few winter projects.

[klb67]

My new halyards and cheek blocks arrived last night. I'm happy, but have one hiccup. The new cheek blocks are dwyer, the same as my mast and old ones, but the bases are slightly different than the old blocks, so the holes don't line up - the new blocks are about a 1/2" shorter (or longer, I forget which). DR Marine suggested moving the blocks about 3/4" up or down the mast, filing the old holes with silicone and drilling new holes. I'm inclined to do that, unless someone has a better suggestion for the repair. JB weld? I suppose I could epoxy an aluminum screw in the hole, cut it off and file it down flush with the mast. Does anyone hav any other ideas or products?

[K.C. Walker]

I think filling holes with rivets looks cleaner than most other solutions.

[GreenLake]

(K.C.o you have a handy source for rivets that are sealed (rather than open)?)

Tapping the holes and inserting a bolt filed flush might work (if you can find aluminum bolts), but the risk is that you scratch the mast.

JB Weld would be effective and near invisible. Make sure to wrap the repair with some stiff plastic or tape and you wouldn't even have to sand it flush.

The choice may come down to taste and whether you are set up for riveting.

PS: the fewer holes in the mast the better, so if one pair can be recycled, I would think about that. One thing to definitely avoid is lining up a lot of holes close by along a possible failure line ...

[K.C. Walker]

(K.C.o you have a handy source for rivets that are sealed (rather than open)?)

Only the ones that I put caulk in...

[GreenLake]

Ahh, I had been wondering, because on mine, the original rivets are all "closed" or whatever the correct term is when the stem doesn't fall out (can't think of the proper terms right now).