Hull Damage from trailer

[jeadstx]

If it helps in this discussion, attached is a picture inside the hull (bilge area) of my 1976 DSII. The picture was taken thru the port side inspection port looking aft. For orientation, in the picture, the CB trunk is to the left, the foam in the seats is to the right, cockpit sole is up, hull on bottom.

John

[Gus]

Back in the eighty's one of our Fleet 126 members had a green house for his landscaping business. He wanted to store his DS inside so he could work on the hull so he put in his green house for the winter, but did not have room for the trailer, so he stored it on three saw horses supported on under rub rail on each side and the bow. He was going to fill in the trailer bunk dents in the hull, but never got a round to it. Next spring when pulled the boat out of the green house the dents where gone. And the dents stayed gone for as long as he owned the boat. I never saw the dents before that winter, so I don't know how bad it was, but he always had a fast boat in our fleet.

Gus

[Swashbuckley]

Well, Jeadstx stopped by on Sunday and we surveyed the damage together. By his experience the deflection from the bunks is not extremely serious. However the hull soundness test proposed by KC provided some interesting information. There is some definite 'bounce' in the hull over the length of the bunker marks. It is about 12" wide and extends beyond the bunker marks by about the same amount. Excellent test as I could clearly determine the damage areas, especially compared to other places on the hull. Now how severe is this damage? That brings us back to Greenlake's scale. and time, energy and money. Full restoration (like new) probably not going to happen (past history). Minimum repair with cracks fixed and revamped trailer she could probably sail happily for another 40 years. I am not going to race her so speed is relative. One thing I like about the DSII is the solid build. So the bunker damage is going to bother me. My wife also reminded me that I have 7 other boats. This one is intended for the TX200, so form follows need. She also pointed out that just getting her back in the water is saving her. So the old 80/20 rule will probably apply.

Step 1. Repair external hull cracks and drag damage at stern. Step 2. Repair crack internally at CB trunk fore and aft. Step 3. (80/20) All comments are helpful and add to my knowledge base. I will have to add two access ports to repair the CB trunk so I will have minimal access to the interior of the hull. I do not think I am up to the cockpit floor removal level. I am tempted to remove a core from the damaged area to see how bad the delamination is. My current plan involves a combination of yall's ideas. Brace (temporary) from the interior and apply heat to see how much deflection can be removed. Use Cawls and bracing to achieve best shape, then add 1 or 2 layers of glass to the overall area. Kind of a thin sandwich on the whole are. Fair and paint. Comments? To answer your question Greenlake the Board is in good shape, it shows no damage and Jeadstx said that it is the original shape as well. So if grounding caused the damage they replaced to board.

She is going to be fun. I think Greenlake has a pretty good feel for the TX200 group. Yes I will be doing mods to fit the needs of the event, that would get me laughed out of my round the bouys group. I will attempt to document them on this very helpful forum. Beyond repair all of the modifications and set-up will be focused on Solo sailing and comfort.

[K.C. Walker]

I'm not sure what a core sample would tell you that the bounce test has not. The delamination that we are talking about is on the level of the fiberglass cloth strands losing their adhesion to the polyester resin. I have a carbon fiber kayak paddle that was used a lot for "rock gardening" so the tips had been used extensively to push the kayak off rocks. The tips had become quite soft. Because it was clear resin, I could see the delaminations as white against the carbon fiber. The edge of the paddle where the resin had been worn off sort of looked like old school room chalkboard eraser. I had some ultrathin superglue and I wicked it into the ends and it sucked right up into the fibers and stiffened the laminate right back up, as it now had adhesion. The soft area was at least 3 inches up from the end. One of those aha moments.

When I did my core project on the bilge/bottom of my boat the first layer in the repair was a double layer of biaxial stitch mat. The difference in stiffness with just two layers on one side of the hull was very significant. I bought a roll of 12 inch wide 12 ounce biaxial stitch mat and overlapped it in the middle of the repair, which was from the forward bulkhead to the transom on each side of the centerboard trunk. So, not dissimilar from the area that you are repairing. By using the 12 inch wide and overlapping it you make a taper that would make it a little easier to fair out. Fairing is really tedious work. If you need to go very far or fill very much it's really time consuming if you're going to get anywhere close to right. But, you're already going to have to do some repairs to the exterior of the hull it appears, so it probably would not add to significantly to your repair time to put some laminate on the outside, as long as you were not proud of the fair surface.

[jeadstx]

When I was by there on Sunday, the deformation did not look as bad as it did in the pictures that were posted initially. Swashbuckley told me some of the deformation had come out after he got the boat off the trailer. He has a very narrow trailer and the bunks were edge on (2" side) instead of across the width of the 2x4. I didn't measure it, but I don't think the bunks were more than 30" apart, perhaps less. We did get a camera down inside the inspection port, I don't remember if there was any delamination, I don't recall any. The flotation is missing in the bilge and needs to be replaced. I suggested inspection ports forward and aft of the CB trunk to access the bilge to make those repairs. Thru ports Swashbuckley might be able to get some light in there to determine if there is any delamination. The boat appears to be fairly solid other than the deformation and the cracks forward and aft of the CB trunk.

In the stern, the P.O. plugged both the auto bailer and the bilge drain (no way to drain the bilge) and added another hole near the waterline into the cockpit. The centerboard appears to be a factory stock centerboard, probably original to the boat.

John

[GreenLake]

What K.C. said.

Adding one or two layers of bi-axial on the outside after hull has been pulled to close to fair (a slight dent would allow the new glass not the stand proud). If you can reach through the ports and fit a layer or two on the inside, that would further complete the transformation of the weak laminate into a sandwich (of sorts). Don't sweat it, if you can't reach in to do it, given your stated "design goals" with this repair.

At worst, the added glass will counteract further weakening, at best it will restore some/most of the strength.

I would possibly not fix the CB until after the hull is in the correct shape, or your CB repair may "fix" the hull in an odd position. Doesn't change the overall amount of effort, just the order in which the work is done.

[Swashbuckley]

Thanks for the info KC. You answered my question about how the delamination is occurring. Yall have also answered my question about just adding glass to the outside. I also agree with you Greenlake, the CB damage is affected by the hull deformation. My plan at this point is to do the dirty cleaning, and grinding outside then move the hull inside to do the repairs. This will allow me to get the hull shape right (relatively anyway) before I start repairs. I have ordered ports from DW so that I can access the inside better. And to answer the issue of fairing, I am kind of strange in that I enjoy creating smooth surfaces, yes sanding. This is an interesting project. I think I am having more fun than I should be.

[talbot]

Having done a major gel coat blister repair last year, I would refer back to the post that suggested looking at the cost of replacement boats. If the polyester hull laminate (as Greenlake suggested) been softened, then it might also need to be refinished and sealed if it is to withstand any prolonged exposure to water. The cost of materials alone for my hull was around $1,000, with only a small area requiring structural repair. There are DS II's on the market now for under $2,000 with sound hulls on roadworthy trailers. Does anyone on the forum seriously think that a total rebuild of the hull and trailer will cost less than that (and I'm assuming time is free)? Remember that any old boat will have lots of other things requiring money and labor. I would presume that if the hull has deformed from the side, the CB trunk is partially collapsed and may require a new narrow profile board ($600). Old boats will generally need sails replaced ($500-$1000), or at least a second set of reef points for the Tx200 ($125-150). Are the spars and standing rigging all ready to go? I could imagine ending up with an immaculate, stiff, seaworthy hull on a shiny trailer that is still a long way from being ready to sail.

[jeadstx]

I've seen the boat and other than the hull issues, the boat appears to be in pretty decent shape. Swashbuckley's mast looked good. Stays looked good, but were the older 3/32" ones. I didn't see his sails, so I can't comment on those. The rudder head and rudder blade were in good shape, the tiller needs replacing. We talked about building a heavier rudder head for the Tx200 since that event is rough on rudders. As I recall, his centerboard moves freely in the trunk and there is a new CB bolt from the camera shot thru the inspection port. Swashbuckley needs to redo the bilge drain as the P.O. plugged it for some reason. Two sets of reef points are needed for the main sail. He is not planning to race the boat, so Intensity Sails might be a good choice (they come with one set of reef points).

John

[GreenLake]

Talbot, your point about cost is appreciated. My costs for refairing and repainting the hull on my DS1 are perhaps as much or more than I paid for the boat, but they include money for renting a larger garage to do the work in. Locally, the DS was apparently never sold in the same numbers as in other parts of the country so I haven't seen too many advertised in easy driving distance, so sourcing a hull in better shape was not necessarily an easy option (and to that add the benefit of "knowing" that particular hull - no hidden problems).

If I calculated time spent, I could buy new and still break even - but then, a bit of restoration work is in itself a hobby. Yes it's work, but entertaining work. Especially when there's a bit of challenge figuring out how to best attack it.

Any task that I can accomplish where the cost of materials are below market value for the ready-made equivalent are particularly satisfying.

The UK-based sailing magazine Practical Boat Owner (very entertaining publication by the way, precisely because of where it is written) had a feature over the last year where they restored a 25' (or so) "project boat". They had the entire editorial team pitch in and heavily worked their contacts to get deals. When they totaled up the costs, it was, of course not competitive, but they came to the conclusion that despite that, it was an an enjoyable and defensible project.

New or old (or restored with a bit too much work/materials) you still need to replace sails, rigging, etc. on a somewhat regular basis. Distributing all this over the years means that after a decade or so, the cost/year is not all that strongly affected. At least it seemed to me - I finally gave up tracking boat expenses, because they seemed to depend on how many times I hit the marine store, not what ended up getting done on the boat that year. -- Before you ask, I'm between 1 to 1.5 K per year on this boat, depends whether I calculate in current dollars or not.

[talbot]

Good point, and after my own hull repair, I'm throwing bricks from a glass house. Furthermore, I am looking for an O'Day 23-2. The only one west of the Rockies as far as I can tell us up in Idaho, and the cost is nearly $5000. With Hunters, Catalina's, MacGregor's and other pocket cruisers lying about for half the price, everyone says I'm delusional. As if they needed proof.

I just looked at the SailingTexas listings and didn't see any recent DS boats for sale, so maybe it's the same situation--if you want an O'Day, you have to (re)build one yourself.

[jeadstx]

Finding an O'Day boat can sometimes be a little difficult in some parts of the country. I found both my DSII and Mariner in Louisiana, over 400 miles from my house in central Texas.

John

[talbot]

Yeah--I think there have been more O'Day 23's for sale at Lewisville and Canyon Lakes in the past year than on the entire west coast. Keep an eye out for me. A person on the iheartodays list noted that if a boat is $2000 cheaper across the country, it might be worth the road trip or shipping. Of course, I think that person was in New England, where it sounds like old O'Days wash up for free on the beach all the time, like bull kelp at low tide.

[jeadstx]

It might be worth the drive if the price is right, gas is down right now, about $2.60 a gallon in Texas right now. Just looked at Sailing Texas and there was an O'Day 22 in Texas for $2900 with trailer. On Sailboat Listings site http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin ... y&sb=5&so= there was an O'Day 23 in Louisiana for $1000 with trailer. Good luck in your search.

John

[Swashbuckley]

OK. To answer a few questions. My goal for this boat is to sail the TX200. Think off road vs. street rod. Boat as found. $0.00 it is nice to have friends who own marinas. I know nothing is free. Hull needs work. Spars are in good shape. Standing rigging is serviceable, but will need upgrading for TX200, as Jeadstx mentioned about $200.00. All running rigging to be replaced from existing stock on hand. (yes I am a boat nut) No sails, found set on this forum, main, 2 headsails, spinnaker $75.00 (yes 75). Fabric in better condition than sails I have raced with. Need reefs on main, me - $20.00. New hanks - maybe as I might install roller furling. CB is in good condition I will use as is. Need to build new tiller estimate for materials $50.00. So, other than hull repair I am into it for a reasonable sum. Every DS that I have looked at in DFW has needed more FG repair than this one, and none of them were free. Also from my experience, pretty boats sit in marinas while boats that are sailed need repairs. When racing we faired the hull yearly, new sails yearly, new rigging constantly. I have yet to spend a seasons budget for racing a hull. Add in the fun factor of salvaging a noble hull and I am money ahead for at least another $2000.00. I do understand the argument for selecting another hull, but what fun would that be, this one is now mine.

Now - update. As I have continued to remove the anti foul and bottom paint I am finding more minor repairs and dings from the past. No surprise. This is leaning me more toward a general exterior bottom repair as previously discussed. So the decision is still pending. As I have gotten more up close and personal with the hull, I think I understand how the damage occurred. When the PO sealed the drains the boat would fill with water, debris, snow etc. during winter storage. The excessive weight flexed the hull causing it to crack at the CB trunk. The PO kept making the problem worse with his hull mods. I will post pics when I finish scraping the hull.

This is just too much fun.