This Old Trailer

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This Old Trailer

Postby KingsTransom » Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:16 pm

Hi all,
I ordered a set of Stoltz polyurethane keel rollers to replace the dry-rotted rubber rollers on the trailer. The new rollers are much stiffer than rubber rollers, more like milk-jug plastic than rubber. Has anyone used these? They sell them for this purpose, so I would assume they do not harm fiberglass boats, but rubber would yield more and spread the load over a larger area. My Texas Royal Little Dude trailer has three keel rollers and wood bunks.

Thanks,

Scott
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:37 am

Scott,

I upgraded from rubber to PU a while ago. The main difference: I don't see the black streaks anymore.

Look at your bunks. If they are narrower than 8", you should widen them to distribute the weight. And you should set their height so that aft of the CB, no weight is on any rollers.

Forward of the CB, the V-shape of the keel is stronger and not likely to deflect based on a point load from a roller.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby KingsTransom » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:52 pm

The bunks are 2x4s mounted on edge, and the edge is horizontal - not even cut to be parallel to the hull. I had planned on planing the edge parallel, then glueing on new carpet. The 5'2" long bunks cantilever 19" aft of the trailer frame, and the boat's transom is 3' aft of the bunks. I could install a second, similar pair of bunks 6" in from the existing pair. That would give more contact area, though I'm not sure it would be better or simpler than installing wide bunks on their sides. etrailer sells a bunch of brackets, so I'm sure I could come up with something.

The three keel rollers are 4" wide. The front roller is 3' back from where the "keel" starts its curve up to the bow, the second is 14" back from the front of the centerboard slot, the rear is 1" behind the rear of the centerboard slot. I found 4" rollers by Yates, made of "thermoplastic rubber" that are said to be stronger than rubber and softer than polyurethane. I'll buy a set to compare with the Stolz PU set I bought earlier.

2227

2228
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:53 pm

What holds up your CB?

I have a fourth roller (or fifth?) that sits right at the edge of the trailer. It has a slight V shape in it, with a notch. I park the trailer so that the top of that roller is just about level with the water surface. Then all I have to do is to "capture" the bow in that notch. That aligns the boat until the bunks take the weight (the roller sits 1" too low, so that it carries no weight after the steep section of the V have passed it).

With that setup, suddenly every time I get a near perfect retrieval. The bunks are high up enough that they act as guides before they take the load. And once they do, unlike with rollers, the boat has to follow the direction of pull (if it was supported by rollers only, it would try to follow the angle of the keel line).

One of my rollers sits below the CB, so not all it's weight is suspended from the pivot. Other people have built a bunk for the CB.
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby DigitalMechanic » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:34 am

If you need ideas... I just did a trailer project the other weekend. Had a similar problem. In the picture I added below, you will see the green carpeted bunk, and the way it was fixed to the trailer essentially left the boat resting on the corner of the bunk (Not good). There were other problems with the way the original bunks were attached to the trailer, but I won't get into that. So, what I did to get the angle of the bunk to spread the load a little better is use swivel bolsters that rock from side to side. The boat seems much happier at rest now.

Parts here... http://www.easternmarine.com/8-galvanized-bunk-bolster-bracket-kit-81210

I used the 8" one to keep the boat low on the trailer. I think the cost was around $50 for all 6 that I used.

I still have more work to do. I plan on putting on either 2x6 or 2x8 bunks that are much longer (I think the black ones I have on there now are only 7ft). When looking under the boat, it definitely wants the bunks to come all the way back to the transom. You can see a very small bit of flex at the edge of the bunk as it stops about 2.5 ft from the transom. None the less, what I have now is far better than what I started with.

As for where to put the weight of the boat (bunks or center line), I think that you will get a different answer each time you ask. I choose to distribute it between the rollers and the bunks on my trailer. I happen to have 6 bolsters (probably way overkill), but that allows me to loosen the middle ones with the boat on the trailer, and let it sink a little bit. This allows it to rest a little on the rollers, and curve the bunks a little to conform better to the shape of the hull. Not sure if this is right, but what I did and so far so good ;)

And yes, working on a trailer at the ramp in the rain... was not as fun as I thought it was going to be, lol.

As for the centerboard, mine folds all the way up into the trunk, so no issues with it being compressed between the boat and a roller. GL, am I deciphering from what you are saying that some boats it is possible for the centerboard to stick out of the trunk a little when completely retracted?

-Paul
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby KingsTransom » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:31 pm

My boat's centerboard is supported by the middle keel roller, but at a point probably about 1/7 of the CB length aft of the pivot, leaving far too much of the CB cantilevered, and thus putting too much vertical force on the pivot bolt, and too much pressure on the roller. As it now sits on the trailer, the aft end of my boat's CB extends about 4" proud of the hull. I may be able to add a keel roller forward of the rear keel roller, to support the aft end of the CB. Any good ideas on how to add a keel roller bracket to the open side of the trailer's cross-member C-beam? The existing bracket is bolted to the face of the C-beam.

Paul,
Looks like your original setup was similar to mine except using a pair of sistered 2x6s or 2x8s instead of 2x4s. Since the stiffness of a beam is proportional to the cube of its height, those 2x6s were not deflecting much to accommodate the shape of the hull. Regarding support, the manual (ds1man-spindrift.pdf) says: "The main load of the boat should be directly down the centerline, using rubber rollers with padded bunks positioned against the side of the hull near the stern for solidarity."

If you do extend a wide-face supporting 2x4 bunk 2.5' aft of the trailer, there may be progressively less support as you go aft of the trailer, due to deflection of the 2x4. To stiffen the cantilever, you may want to glue a tapered section of 2x4, on-edge, to the trailer-side face of the 2x4 to form a T-beam, with the tallest end of the taper at the transom. I would certainly need to do this since my boat's transom is 4'7" aft of the trailer.

The issue with the centerboard is support, rather than position or compression. Without some trailer support points, the CB is only held in place by the pivot bolt and the control lines - not enough for a bumpy road trip. You might consider adding a keel roller to the trailer's rear cross member, if it happens to support the CB, or otherwise be at a good support point. You may also be able to add a keel roller to the tongue using U-bolts.

What did you choose for bunk material? Trailer stores seem willing to sell carpeted bunks, but at a great premium over dimensional construction lumber. Cedar is naturally rot resistant, so may be a good choice for something that frequently gets wet.
Did you paint the whole bunk, or just the ends to prevent splitting?
Do the bunks, when oriented with their wide face against the hull, conform to the hull shape as a result of being wet and put under the stress of the hull's weight?
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby DigitalMechanic » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:13 pm

As it now sits on the trailer, the aft end of my boat's CB extends about 4" proud of the hull.


Yep, mine folds all the way up into the trunk. Not sure if that is normal or not. Maybe someone with more experience with these boats will chime in. Seems like it should retract more to me.

I may be able to add a keel roller forward of the rear keel roller, to support the aft end of the CB. Any good ideas on how to add a keel roller bracket to the open side of the trailer's cross-member C-beam? The existing bracket is bolted to the face of the C-beam.


I have 2 rollers, one forward of the CB, the other is under the CB. Once on the trailer, I just drop the CB onto the roller. I tried to take a picture, but not sure I got a good one. There are 2 holes driller through the crossmember for the bolts to attach it. The rollers can be adjusted up or down by sliding them with the bolts loosened.

If you do extend a wide-face supporting 2x4 bunk 2.5' aft of the trailer, there may be progressively less support as you go aft of the trailer, due to deflection of the 2x4.


The bunks are 2.5' short of reaching the back/transom of the boat. My plan is actually to bring the bunks to the back age of the boat, but not past it.

The issue with the centerboard is support, rather than position or compression. Without some trailer support points, the CB is only held in place by the pivot bolt and the control lines - not enough for a bumpy road trip. You might consider adding a keel roller to the trailer's rear cross member, if it happens to support the CB, or otherwise be at a good support point. You may also be able to add a keel roller to the tongue using U-bolts.


The CB is laying on the the aft roller when the boat is at rest. I keep the uphaul tied off so it does not dangle in the trunk. I have not had to fix it yet on my boat but I hear that it is common for the rope to get jammed in there (maybe that is why yours CB does not go all the way up?)

What did you choose for bunk material? Trailer stores seem willing to sell carpeted bunks, but at a great premium over dimensional construction lumber. Cedar is naturally rot resistant, so may be a good choice for something that frequently gets wet.
Did you paint the whole bunk, or just the ends to prevent splitting?


I did not make them. They were pre-made. I bought the boat about a year ago, and there were a million projects that I have done with it. Those bunks were sitting around for a while. I knew from the "get go" that I needed to do something with the trailer, but there were lots of other things that impeded sailing that got shifted in front of trailer work. Then one of the bunks started to break loose, so I had to do something sooner than later and the pre-made bunks got used. Now that I know a little more about the boat, I think I will make some bunks in the near future. I am pretty confident that there is beneficial support to them being wider than 4". I am curious too about the best type of wood, etc to use.

Do the bunks, when oriented with their wide face against the hull, conform to the hull shape as a result of being wet and put under the stress of the hull's weight?


Yes. It is much better. Before when they were upright, there was no bend at all and not only did the boat sit on the corners of the bunk, much less of the hull touched the bunks. Now nearly the entire 7ft of bunk it touching the hull (except that little bit of bunk towards the front). I am sure more support (to the transom) would be appreciated by this old boat, but considering what I started with it has to be much happier.
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Centerboard resting on roller
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby KingsTransom » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:55 pm

My CB's range of motion allows it to fully retract, flush with the hull, but there is nothing on the trailer to hold it in that position, so the CB drops to the level of its nearest support, which is the middle keel roller.

The problem faced by adding a second keel roller bracket to the opposite side of the same crossmember C-beam, is that the opposite side is the open end of the C-beam, which does not provide a good mounting face like the other side does. Assuming the keel roller bracket spans the C-beam edges, the keel roller bracket mounting bolts would deform the bracket (or crossmember) when tightened. I would need to use a wider mounting bracket to clear the existing bracket's mounting bolts, and a solid spacer and longer bolts to provide a mounting face proud of the open ends of the C-Beam. I could also use two sections of box beam, bigger than the C-beam is deep, bolt it to the inside face of the C-beam and bolt the keel roller bracket to the box beam.

My plan is actually to bring the bunks to the back age of the boat, but not past it.


I was not assuming you wanted the bunks aft of the transom, rather they would be cantilevered aft of the trailer, extending near the plane of the transom.
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby DigitalMechanic » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:44 pm

Ok I think I see now. This is my first boat and first trailer, so I may seem a little slow to follow. It seems like your boat wants to be just a little further up on the trailer than is possible, so you can get the cross member sitting in an ideal location under the centerboard. I could think of a few ways to jury rig it, but I would think that welding in an additional cross member would be the proper way to put that support roller in the "perfect" location. If adding spacers to extend the roller location does not work... On the jury rigged side, or until you can figure out exactly what you want to do, maybe there is some way to make a bolt on version of the crossmember (maybe with wood vs metal?) that can either support the centerboard directly or support the additional roller. If it just holds the centerboard, the weight should be minimal.

If you do extend a wide-face supporting 2x4 bunk 2.5' aft of the trailer, there may be progressively less support as you go aft of the trailer, due to deflection of the 2x4. To stiffen the cantilever, you may want to glue a tapered section of 2x4, on-edge, to the trailer-side face of the 2x4 to form a T-beam, with the tallest end of the taper at the transom. I would certainly need to do this since my boat's transom is 4'7" aft of the trailer.


Got it now. I went out and measured mine, and the transom is right at 3ft past the trailer. So, you do not think that much extra support would be provided by extending the bunks aft?
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby KingsTransom » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:20 pm

It seems like your boat wants to be just a little further up on the trailer than is possible...


An interesting thought. The front-most part of the winch hardware, at the point where it is mounted on the tongue box-beam, is 8.5" aft of the rear-most part of the hitch coupler hardware. This does not seem unusual, and I don't know if that distance serves some purpose, but it does seem the winch hardware, and therefore the boat, could be moved forward 8.5 inches. The 8.5" would put the middle keel roller at a better point along the CB, but far from ideal (maybe 1/3 back instead of 1/7 back). The main problem with moving the boat is balance - the tongue weight, currently 80 lbs., would increase dramatically, though by an amount hard to estimate without knowing the weight distribution of the boat.

So, you do not think that much extra support would be provided by extending the bunks aft?


I may be over-engineering things. Having additional support is better than not having it, and the extended bunks will certainly provide additional support, whether the bunk is strengthened or not. One easy way to estimate the supporting force is to clamp a pair of 2x4s (2x6s or whatever you would use) in a vice, extended by the same distance you wish to cantilever, and try to pull the ends apart.
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:36 am

The front-most part of the winch hardware, at the point where it is mounted on the tongue box-beam, is 8.5" aft of the rear-most part of the hitch coupler hardware.


That seems very far back opposed to my trailer. If I measure from the tongue/hitch to the bow stop (this is at an angle) I get roughly 4 feet. Nearly half the distance you have reported. If I had to guess, the 8 ft distance is to deal with very shallow water. I have not tried to launch my boat from say... a flat-ish beach. However, the ramp I use is known for being shallow (though not the shallowest I have visited). You have seen the picture of my trailer, and I know that with my truck's tires at the edge of the water (not in water), I can submerge the trailer right up to the second keel roller, showing just a tad of the fore most part of the bunks. This seems more than "submerged enough" to me (makes seeing what you are doing during retrieval challenging at times, I just kinda shoot for the winch as the trailer disappears, lol). Anyway, I am not good with terms, but the angled piece that holds the winch and bow stop are clamped to the trailer frame with U Bolts, and look completely adjustable fore and aft. Not sure if yours is the same. If so, you may experiment with it prior to starting a project with spacers and/or an extra cross member. I would not think that shifting a 575lb boat forward 1-2ft would transfer that much tongue weight, but then again I do not have a formula to prove that either. If you have a bathroom scale you can weigh the tongue before and after your adjustments to see what change in tongue weight you get. My guess is that with a boat this small it will be fairly negligible.

Curious question? Your tongue weight is at 80lbs, is that not on the light side?

My trailer is a RYO, so I had to weigh it prior to registering here in Florida. Luckily, there is a drive on scale down the way from the house. I weighted the boat on the trailer, filled with gear, as I only had to come in under 2000lbs. The gross weight with trailer, boat, and gear was around 1200lbs. I am being presumptuous, but if you need a baseline I suspect yours should be in that ballpark as well. By the 11-15% tongue weight rule that leaves a window of 132-180lbs that yours should be within. I feel like I need to weigh the tongue of my trailer now, lol.
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:58 am

Ok, now that I am reading this back, lol....

You said 8.5 inches of adjustment room, not 8.5ft. Doh...

Thinking about this, if your tongue weight is 80lbs and the golden rules says it probably needs to be closer to 130lbs, then the tongue wants the boat to be more forward. This is what we were thinking for the roller to assist with CB stabilization. However, the centerboard slot is roughly 4ft total length and you may have the roller within a 1ft aft of the front opening of the CB trunk (if my eyes are working correctly). My roller rests dead center of the centerboard, so you have to get at least 2ft back to reach the center of the CB slot (to get the support you are looking for). Another 8.5 inches may get you close enough to the 2 ft mark and add the tongue weight you are potentially missing at the same time. If it were me I would try to move the winch/bow stop forward and see what you get.

Then of course the roller will need to be adjusted/raised as well to sit flush with the hull as well, so it is actually preventing the CB droop. My rollers have a little weight on them (as previously mentioned). If you want that support on the hull as well you will have to do something crafty to lift the boat or jack the roller up so it puts a little pressure on the hull. Conversely I did the opposite, and dropped the bunks down little by little until the boat rested on the rollers, not completely... but just a little pressure. I have 6 bolsters that are attached with U bolts, so it was easier to make small adjustments when lowering. I have to go back and look at your picture again, but I think even with 4 bolsters a truck jack would make it possible to lower.

Once again, thinking out loud here... Your boat will be as far forward on the trailer as possible at this point. I would probably want it as low on the trailer as I could get it to accommodate the shallowest launching conditions possible?

-Paul
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:17 am

As a side note, going back and looking at the pictures. I think that you have only a front and back cross member. My trailer has a 3rd one in the middle. This is why I am probably getting that extra 4 ft of "launching arm" past the winch (for lack of better words). Also, the roller on the middle cross member is what my CB is resting on, providing an inherently "convenient" location to rest the CB. Yours will rest on the front/fore most crossmember if all works out with adjustments. Anyway, just pointing out that setting up a trailer with only 2 cross members for our boats may be less forgiving due it being a little smaller... in case someone reads this later trying to make a determination as to what type of trailer mates up easier to the boat.

If you elect to make the trailer adjustments, I am looking forward to hearing about the results.

-Paul
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby KingsTransom » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:52 pm

I should be able to calculate where along the trailer bed the center of gravity acts, since I know the boat weight, the tongue weight and the axle-to-ball distance. I created a schematic and spreadsheet to show the effect of moving the boat forward. If the CG were moved right over the axle, the tongue weight would be zero, if over the tongue, it would be the boat weight. I'll need to check weights again once I finish making the towing mast support.

Moving the boat forward 3.75" increases the tongue weight from 85 to 100 lbs. Moving the entire available 8.5" increases the tongue weight to 121 lbs.

2229
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Re: This Old Trailer

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:30 pm

I thew my trailer tongue (actually front wheel) on a bathroom scale today... for fun. It read 80lbs. That is way below the proposed minimal 11% rule. I have not had any issues with trailering thus far. Seems to ride pretty smooth. In your case utilizing the extra 8.5 inches, and considering our gross weight is similar, that would put you right at the proposed minimum tongue weight specification (your trailer/boat/gear is probably slightly lighter than mine, say 1100 lbs gross weight).

On a side note, I am not sure what 130lbs at the tongue feels like to lift/tilt the trailer by hand. But, I know the 80lbs I have is very doable. I always take a 5 gallon bucket and prop the boat up to completely drain the water out of it after I bring it home. If I do not, it will not drain all the water out while the trailer if flat/level. What I am saying is that, at least for me, it is critical to be able to lift the boat by the tongue to get a complete hull draining.
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