Spinnaker pole questions

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Spinnaker pole questions

Postby calden » Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:46 am

Hey all:

I've searched the forum for an answer to my question, but like Diogenes looking for an honest man I come up empty.

I bought a spinnaker and am going to rig my DSI for this sail as SOON AS IT QUITS SNOWING AROUND HERE!!!! The part I'm not clear on is when buying a spinnaker pole, or if I use my existing whisker pole, how do I attached a topping lift to the pole? The appropriate sized pole - Forespar small boat pole:

http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/me ... ode=FORSSP

-does not have an eyestrap for a topping lift. How have people here put one on?

Also, in considering using my existing whisker pole: it has a jaw on one end and a spike on the other. Is this appropriate for spinnaker use, or does one really need a jaw at either end? I would think a jaw would be good to have at the sail clew.

Thanks in advance,

Carlos
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calden
 
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Postby shawn » Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:02 pm

Carlos,

That's exactly the pole I bought. One end comes unfinished so you just cut to lenght (I think 72" total including the ends) and glue the fitting on. I screwed an eyestrap on midway for the topping lift. I haven't found that I need a downhaul because the guy provides enough pull downward in the conditions that I use a spinnaker in (<15 kts). I am going out tomorrow for the first time this year.... chilly but windy

Shawn
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Postby Phill » Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:45 pm

Carlos, My first poles all used a standard Harken eye strap like the kind that could fit on top of thier cleats. Any screw on eye strap that is large enough for the topping lift hook to hook into. My downhaul ties to the same hook.
My current spin pole has a "D" ring lashed to the center of the pole with small dia. 1/8" high tech line, spectra or vectron. link to pic
533 zoom in to see better.

There was nothing wrong with the eye strap. It worked fine, but didnt want to drill holes in my new tapered pole.

praying for snow melt too.
phill
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Postby calden » Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:22 am

Phill and Shawn:

Thanks for the answers.

I'm assuming that your poles have jaws on both ends.... right?

Carlos
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I'll let those two answer themselves, but

Postby Roger » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:41 am

I'll let others answer for themselves, but joining the thread late, here are my comments.

I used a telescoping forespar pole, one with jaws at one end and spike at the other. This is really all you need on a boat this size, and it actually makes it more versatile, as you can use it to wing out your jib when sailing wing on wing, and actually be able to set the pole length where you want it.

Also a topping lift again is not necessary on a boat this size and the pole is not so big that it weighs down the sail. I did attach an eye strap on mine, but likewise did not want to drill holes so attached the eyes strap with zip ties. Worked wonderfully!

The specs and measures for this boat allows a pole up to 74" in length. I attached mine to the mast at the 48" height which is the maximum height allowed under the specs for a measurement certificate.
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Postby calden » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:39 am

Roger:

Thanks. I already have a whisker pole I used for W and W sailing, and will try that first. Don't know if it's beefy enough for a spinnaker. But also don't know if I need a claw on either end, or if a claw and spike will do.

Here's the question: in using this for the spinnaker, you poke the spike through the clew as with a jib, right? But when one uses a claw, it just hooks to the sheet near the clew, so the sheet can slide through a bit.

In other words, with a spike, the spinnaker clew is fixed to the end of the pole, whereas when using a claw, the clew is free and can actually extend foreward somewhat with the wind, as the sheet slides through the claw.

How does this spike/hook difference affect spinnaker handling?

Carlos

(This is beginning to feel like a tongue twister.)
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to be blunt... lousey

Postby Roger » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:39 pm

By having the claw clip be able to slide up and down the sheet (guy) you actually lose control of the spinnaker. The pole could theoretically (and actually) slide down the line and collapse. To prevent this, you would need to put in a stopper knot in the line about an inch from the grommet on the spinnaker and you would attach the claw between the knot and the grommet. Another alternative is to tie a bowline in the line that attaches to the spinnaker and attach the claw to the eye of the bowline, so that it does not slide. The long and short of this is that there is no advantage to having a claw on both ends of this size of pole. The only advantage of a claw (on larger poles) is that you can trip it remotely when it is far outboard like it would be in larger boats.

If you already have a whisker pole with a spike, poke that through the grommet, and tension on the line will keep it engaged.

Just another note regarding the whisker pole or spinnaker pole... the general rule is that it should be in line with, and an extension of, the boom forward of the mast, so sighting down the boom gives you the appropriate setting for the pole. The pole actually sets in the tack (forward most grommet) of the spinnaker, not the clew, and controls the leading edge (luff) of the sail. Hope this helps.
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Postby calden » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:29 pm

Thanks. I'm sure I'll have it sorted out when I get on the water and hoist the thing.

Carlos
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Postby Phill » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:46 am

Carlos,
FWIW I have never seen anyone who doesnt use jaws on both ends. I can not imagine that there would be better control with a spike type end. For example when the sheet needs to be released to respond to a gust, there is no tension in the sail and the luffing and shaking will surely pull the sail off of a spike. A fixed jaw with keep a grip on the guy in this circumstance, giving you a chance to get everything back in control. With no control of the guy end, capsizing is very likely.

Also for proper spinaker setting shape and control, all racers are using both topping lift and downhauls. I agree that our spinaker is small, but that requires the sail to be carried quite high off of the deck and a guy hook just can not handle all the possible dynamics when setting, flying, jibing and dousing, as well as full pole controls. Even with full controls, I have had the spinaker and pole 'sky' when jibing. Not a fun situation in heavy air and lots of chop.

Carlos, when you get ready to fly the chute, I find it very helpful to think of the windward clew( guy/pole end) to be like the jib tack at the bow. It is never released in a puff. When you need to release pressure in the jib, let the sheet (leeward clew) go, and the sail luffs, makes a lot of noise, but no real tipping pressure. Same with the spinaker,... to release pressure, NEVER let the guy end get away from you, it should be like the jib tack, firmly in place and held there. Release ONLY the spinaker sheet (leeward, non-pole end). I preach this idea to my kids as they have crewed for me over the last 18 years, and that philosphy of keeping the guy end in control has kept us upright while flying the spinaker in winds over 25 knots.

Keep the big stick pointing at the sky :)
phill
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Postby calden » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:32 am

Phill:

Do you put the jaw into the cringle or, as Roger suggested, tie a knot or bowline in the sheet?

Thanks,
Carlos
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not disagreeing with Phil, just for the record

Postby Roger » Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:23 pm

I'm not disagreeing with Phil, just trying to save you money if you already have a pole with a spike. You do want to secure that tack end though, and indeed a clip will be easier to do it with than a spike. The other option you have is to purchase a clip end, and retrofit the spike end, again likely saving you some cash for other boating items.

As Phil states, you want to make the tack end as solid as possible, yet be able to change its position with the sheet and guy, and of course keep it solid up and down with the topping lift and downhaul. I have heard of some people using a bungee for the downhaul, but I never did. A 1/4" line is all that is needed for the topping lift. These four lines keep the tack stable wherever you want it, then you adjust the sheet.

Lots of good ideas on this board. Put em all together and do what works best for you and your boat.
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Postby shawn » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:43 pm

Carlos.

I have jaws on both ends for the reasons that Phil mentions and also when jibing the mast end becomes the sail end and vice versa. The pole does not actually get attached to the sail, the line just runs through the opening. You may have to push the pole to the sail initially but the tension holds it in place. Without a topping lift, it would be very difficult to maintain the correct pole height. A spinnaker is a very free formimg sail, unlike a jib that is hanked on a stay, which is why you need the pole controls.

Phil, that must've been a wild ride with the spinnaker in 25 kts!! I love to play around with a GPS checking speed, couldn't imagine how fast you were skimming along!

Shawn
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Postby Phill » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:37 pm

Shawn, Yes is was a 'wild' ride. almost lost it a couple of times.

Carlos, the jaws go on the windward line. the pole slides up against the sail. No knot. You need to be able to hook the jaw on from the cockpit and slide it up to the sail when setting and jibing.

Here is a exerpt from a recent post I made that may clear this up a bit:

drted asked;
")How do you decide on placement of where spinnaker pole downhaul turns on or through the deck? I was thinking of using a turning block located on or near the mast/deck meeting point. It looks like you have it entering the cuddy front. Is that just a simple grommet hole or do you have a pulley of some kind? "

I answered;

"Placing the downhaul right next to the mast is actually the best place for simplicity. Putting the downhaul like it is on Lollipop, complicates things a bit, or alot depending on how you use it. The advantage of my forward placement is that it creates a forward pull on the pole as well as down.
This keeps the pole end at the spinaker clew and keeps the pole from sliding away from the sail. The disadvantage is that this creates a 'differential' pivot point, as opposed to the uphaul. (This will get tricky, I will try to explain, Hang in there) Because these two controls are working from different pivot points when the pole is adjusted forward or aft with the spinaker guy (windward control line) the uphaul pivots from the same plane as the mast end of the pole. But, the down haul is in a different plane. When the pole is pulled aft the downhaul trys to pull the pole down, OR when the pole is eased forward, the downhaul also eases and lets the pole rise. There are three options to deal with this;
1, use line for both up and down hauls, and adjust them both every time when you adjust the guy. (three adjustments for one result, YIPE )
2, "temper" the uphaul with a 2' section of 1/4" bungee to absorb the length differential when adjusting the guy. This is what some of the very successful California DSer's use. Advantgage is that the pole is positively kept from skying in heavier air. but it also causes the pole height to change whenever the guy is adjusted as described above.
3, "temper" the downhaul with about 2' of bungee. Advantage is that the pole height stays where you set it, no matter what you do with the guy. Disadvangage is the that Pole can 'sky' during jibes in heavy air. The bungee can be backed up with a line to limit its mamimum stretch. This will help with the skying.
Lollipop has option 3.
Yes the hole in the cuddy is just a plastic push in fairlead grommet. The distance from the mast determines how much forward pull is created. More forward = more pole pull to the sail, and more differential troubles. Place the downhaul near the mast base and no differential complications or forward pole pull. Choose your poisen "

The thread was http://forum.daysailer.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2319
I answered some other questions there too.
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Postby calden » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:58 am

Thanks to all who responded!

I'm sure everyone remembers their first time at a particular aspect of sailing, when you kind of knew what to do from reading and watching other people, but hadn't actually yet done it. All the advice and discussion is very much appreciated.

Carlos
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