Boom Vang question

Moderator: GreenLake

Boom Vang question

Postby Jim Akins » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:02 am

Hello all, I am new to the forum :lopl: and I have a question concerning the use of 3:1 boom gang kits. D&R Marine sells one that is recommended for the DSII. However at half the price Jimyoungsailing.com sells a 3:1 vang kit for half the price for use on the "Butterfly Sailboat". My question is this. The butterfly weighs about 150lbs and the DSII weighs around 575lbs.. Will the vang sold for the butterfly work on my DSII? Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.... thanks
Jimbo
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Postby Jim Akins » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:26 pm

So 37 of you read my post and not one person has some thought on this subject? What kind of forum is this? Oh .....Is it because I'm new?
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Postby GreenLake » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:02 pm

Jim,

welcome to the forum! I suspect, the reason you haven't gotten an answer is that the 37 views were by people who don't know the answer to your question.

I'm not an expert on vangs, but if you search older posts you'll find spirited discussions. Many people prefer much more powerful vangs. Up to 20:1. But that goes along with a particular style of sailing which may or may not be for you.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Boom Vang question

Postby hectoretc » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:01 pm

Jim Akins wrote:Hello all, I am new to the forum :lopl: and I have a question concerning the use of 3:1 boom gang kits. D&R Marine sells one that is recommended for the DSII. However at half the price Jimyoungsailing.com sells a 3:1 vang kit for half the price for use on the "Butterfly Sailboat".


Hi Jim,
Nearly anyone on this forum can tell you that I know almost nothing about anything being a new sailor myself, but I looked at both the D&R and Jimyoungsailing.com sites and just want to be sure you're comparing similar setups when you think pricing. That is something I can consider without knowing much about sailing.

For $105.00 D&R offers the full kit, with all fasteners & lines, ready to install. At $112.00, Jim Young's full vang system is more expensive than the D&R product in it's "complete ready to go" form, but as you've noted, you can buy just the vang for less. On the Jim Young site, they state that "All vangs come complete with line and shackles and the hook on the boom-end of the vang", and in the picture, it looks to me, like the butterfly has a welded bracket on the mast to accept the vang "arm". Just buying the vang doesn't seem to include any hardware or lines to attach the vang to the mast and it doesn't include the eye strap for the boom to hook into, so you should add in the price of those pieces before doing a true price comparison. I may be wrong, and a call to Jim Young sailing can probably clarify that question.

I've formed my own personal thoughts on the interchangeability of vangs between hulls, but again with no practical experience I think I'll keep my thoughts to myself for a while longer to check them against more experienced opinions.

Good Luck - Scott
DS #6127 - Breakin' Wind - From the land of 10,000 lakes, which spend 80% of the year frozen it seems...
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Postby K.C. Walker » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:17 pm

Jimbo,

I'll second the welcome!

I looked, didn't comment. I have no idea what a Butterfly is. With no links provided, I would have to go searching to find out what the D&R vang is and what the Butterfly vang is. Though, I'm sure that I would like neither one of them. There's plenty of interest here and people are friendly, you just made it a little difficult.

I had a mid-quality 5:1 vang and did not care for that. I then moved up to a 20:1 cascading vang and am very happy with it. I bought high quality Harken and Ronstan parts off eBay and put it together for not much more than the price of a low-quality premade 3:1 vang. Of course, then I spent quite a bit more by leading the control line through the cabin top down to the and along keelson, and then up to a rotating cleat on the top of the centerboard trunk next to the main sheet. :-)
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Boom Vang or not to Boom Vang

Postby hectoretc » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:46 am

Greetings all,
At the risk of slightly hijacking Jim's post, or maybe just taking a little detour, a broader question on boom vangs in general.

Obviously, at the time of design or market planning, it wasn't considered an essential piece for the DS series since the DaySailer's were not sold with them (at least mine didn't come with one), so where does the "vang value" kick in sufficiently to justify purchasing or building one?

Is the recreational lake/coast cruiser OK without one and you really only need one if your going to race, or maybe once you've learned your boating skills (on this boat class) and want to add that next something extra to make it better?

Or are they like seatbelts and motorcycle helmets, in that they are originally an aftermarket piece that wasn't considered stock early on, but became a normal piece of equipment as technology and industry/consumer experience grew?

Thanks
DS #6127 - Breakin' Wind - From the land of 10,000 lakes, which spend 80% of the year frozen it seems...
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Postby ChrisB » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:52 am

Jim,

I looked at the vang sold on jimyoungsailing dot com and I think it would work well on the DS. I have a very lightweight vang on my boat and for my non-racing use, it works fine. It was a hand-me-down so I have no idea what size boat it was intended for. If you intend to be a hardcore racer, you might want to consider something with more mechanical advantage.
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Postby K.C. Walker » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:45 am

Scott,

The boom vang is definitely an add-on. There are plenty of small boats, maybe most small boats, that do not use them. At 3:1 on a Daysailer, they are used to keep the boom from "skying" when reaching or running and in my opinion way better than not having one.

What I've found with a 3:1 vang or even 4:1 was there was not enough mechanical advantage to make adjustments once the boom was off-center. That is, I needed the main sheet tension pulling the boom down so that I could tension the vang properly.

This set up, that four-time national champion Phill Root put together is meant to be simple and inexpensive but it gives a lot of control. If you watch eBay for a little while you can pick up a lot of the parts very reasonably. Even if you pay retail the cost is not so much compared to how much more functional setup is.
539
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Postby hectoretc » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:58 pm

Thanks KC,

I mentioned in another post that my boat came without sails, and being on an extremely low budget late last year, I bought an inexpensive used set on eBay. They're slightly undersized, but that’s OK, as it will just slow things down a bit for me while I learn the basics. I'm now allocating some budget for a new set of intensity sails this summer.

I lucked out that the main came with slugs rather than a boltrope, but it is also loose-footed (only the tack and clew are anchored).
Is a vang still useful with a loose-footed sail, or does it need the boltrope on the boom to be able to get the desired results?

Or, does one thing have nothing to do with the other ? (that would not be a surprise)

Thanks - Scott
DS #6127 - Breakin' Wind - From the land of 10,000 lakes, which spend 80% of the year frozen it seems...
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Postby Baysailer » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:13 pm

I put together a functional shopping list for a 6:1 vang that uses a 3:1 with a single cascade. All the parts and materials are from http://www.duckworksbbs.com and should stand the tests of time. Total cost is around $70 plus shipping.

1ea, Single Block (1 3/8"), RL-301, $9.31
1ea, Fiddle Block, RL-378A, $15.55
1ea, Single w/Becket, RL0602B, $12.12
2ea, Mast Bail, RL-334-L, $3.40 ($6.80)
1ea, Fairlead/Bullseye, SD-082016, $2.25
1ea, Cam Cleat w/base, RL-262, $11.62
35', Line 6mm (1/4"), $0.39/ft ($13.60)
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Postby K.C. Walker » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:38 pm

Scott,

The vang has little effect on the foot of the sail either way. A sail with a bolt rope on the foot is cut with a "shelf" of extra cloth along the foot. The lower portion of the sail is controlled more by the outhaul. The vang controls leech tension and mast bend. A 3:1 vang has some control of leech tension and no noticeable mast bend control.

A powerful vang can put quite a bow in the mast which flattens the sail out and de-powers it. Also, putting on the vang makes the rig more flexible. Once the mast is bowed it is automatically more flexible and adaptable to wind gusts. Using the vang as "sheeting", that is holding the boom down with the vang rather than the sheet allows the boom to float from that point which makes it more flexible and responsive to gusts.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:40 am

I read it - just didn't have time to post a reply at that moment ...

There are several photos of my vang setup in my gallery:

gallery/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&search_id=usersearch&username=TIM+WEBB&user_id=155&start=108

It was given to me by a friend who had just bought a used Precision 18 and didn't want anything "Non-Harken" on his boat (it's a Ronstan vang).

Seems to work pretty well, although I'm not always sure I'm using it to the best advantage? Basically, anytime the boom starts bouncing up and down, for whatever reason, I just reach over and honk on that vang line until it stops. It's definitely full on when I'm wing 'n' winging, especially in rough seas, like when there are a bunch of overpowered wakeboard or bass boats flying by ... :x

Oh, and I guess the pix don't show it very clearly, but they're double blocks (two sheaves in each) at either end of the non-cascaded (blue) portion. Not sure how that translates into the purchase ratio ... ?

Also, I've been through several iterations of the connection to the mast base (eyestraps screwed on, riveted on, etc., none of which were strong enough), and have finally (I hope!) settled on a bail I made that is attached to the rear hinge pin.
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Wow... Thanks you all for the great info....

Postby Jim Akins » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:53 pm

I think maybe I was a little quick trying to fish for some answers... (my bad)..
From what am seeing and reading, I really like the self built vangs and think I would get a much better one putting it together myself. Either for racing or casual sailing...
:D
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Postby TIM WEBB » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:57 pm

"Instant gratification" is *usually* available in spades on this forum, but other times you need to sit tight and be patient. Yet other times you will never get an answer, but usually in the meantime you'll get a buncha other answers to questions you didn't even know you had ...

... it's all about the journey 8)
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