So, about this downhaul...

Moderator: GreenLake

So, about this downhaul...

Postby seasick » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:31 pm

Finally got the sail all the way up today (had a snag to fix) and there quite a bit of play in the luff of the sail near the foot. I tried to pull the boom down but it appears to be as far down in the slot as it will go. So, am I missing something or looking at the wrong thing? There is a cleat below it but pretty sure boom is at the bottom of the slot.

My sail does not have numbers, just the DS on it.. maybe it's a replacement sail that's a little too long? I would actually like my boom to be able to be lifted a bit higher, but it is lifted only by raising the sail. Thanks
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby GreenLake » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:18 pm

Are you sure that your sail reaches all the way to the top? Sometimes the knots and shackles in the halyard add so much that it's not possible to raise your sail all the way. If necessary, tie the halyard directly to the sail.

The cleat below the boom, if it sits on the mast track, is used to tie the boom down. If your sail has a grommet for a Cunningham which would be about a few inches above the tack of the sail, it is usually tied off there as well.

On my boat there's a small stop right above the cleat that limits how far down the boom can be pulled. If pulled all the way to the stop, the luff of the sail is stretched almost flat. The cunningham would allow further stretching, as needed, to pull out wrinkles. Shouldn't be needed in light winds. If you tighten the Cunningham a bit of excess material would bunch near the foot, but it shouldn't look like you put a reef in...

You could try to measure your mast and compare it to the rigging specifications to those in the bylaws http://forum.daysailer.org/pdf/dsbylaw3.pdf. That would tell you if your mast is too short or the luff of your sail too long for some reason.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby TIM WEBB » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:28 pm

To add a bit to GL's (always outstanding) advice, here's a little "test" you can do:

If you have the yard space, or any space for that matter, lay the whole rig on it's side on the ground. Yup, mast, boom, mainsail, the whole thing. Watch that you don't damage the spreaders - they should fold back out of the way, and are not involved in this exercise. Now, "raise" the main as far as it will go. This will probably be with the head within about 3-4 inches of the masthead, due to the thickness of the splice in the main halyard, if you are using the regular double braid one. Find some way to fasten said halyard to something, then go back "down" to the tack/boom end. That (boom downhaul) cleat you have down there should be screwed into a tube that rides in the sail slot. Loosen that, and pull the boom "down" (with main tack attached) as tight as you can get it. Then tighten the cleat/tube about an inch or two below that. This will give you the "baseline setting" for the particular main you have. If you "run out of room" at the base of the mast for the cleat/tube, then either the mast is too short or the main luff is too long, in which case you'd want to make sure that you set the system up in such a way that you can use lots of Cunningham when you want to tighten the main luff. There should be a cringle (grommet) about 8-10 inches above the tack of the sail, through which you would run a line in order to pull down on the main luff. See my gallery for pics. Hope this helps!
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby jeadstx » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:40 pm

I sometimes have a problem when raising the main where my boom jams a bit in the the track/slot making it appear that the sail is all the way up. I will check to make sure the boom can still slide. If it is jammed, I will get it loose and see if the sail will rise some more. When I am sure it is up all the way, I push down on the boom and secure the downhaul.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby seasick » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:30 pm

You may be right that the sail is not up all the way. I see every inch counts, so to make sure. Tying the halyard directly may help too. Someone did take me out one time last year in the beginning and I recall them tying the downhaul so it must have been useable and worthwhile. There is a big "hole" in the sail where the luff meets the foot, but I'm guessing if I pulled that piece of the sail down straight it would likely amount to about 2 inches or less. Probably can be taken up higher. Will check that out.

Tim you are saying something about being able to move that tube on the inside of the mast.? News to me..thanks. I did look at it and assumed since the cleat was screwed in that it was a permanent placement. I'm guessing then that the pressure of the cleat against the mast holds that tube in place.. unscrew the cleat a bit and can move that tube? Will check that out for sure too. (visualizing from yesterday..I hope correctly)

It was worth my life to get the mast stepped this year, so cannot take it down for love or money. But I get the value of your idea. But just being able to to possibly move that tube down the mast and making sure sail is fully raised may be enough to see if my sail length is WNL. I have not yet checked out your gallery but will look for that cringle in my sail and see about using the cunningham there. Understandably, I won't be buying another sail so I'll make what I have work.

At this point I'm still inexperienced enough to get a thrill when the boat sails at any rate. but I'm willing to do the work and study to move out of the "Rube" stage eventually. For this year my goal is to know the boat enough to pass the embarrassment stages. Last year I had a buddy.. he didn't know sailing, but knew motors and boating and could do the heavy lifting. This year I'm on my own. One day couldn't get the rudder off (there's a trick) and the other couldn't raise the sail. (was alone both times). Obviously have not taken it out under sail this year yet due to issues stated but it's still practicing to get the kinks out and be able to have a smooth routine to get underway. I would have never considered all this lifting and balancing, pulling and bending as "exercise" a couple of years ago when I was working a physical job, but damn it's knocking me out this year!

The bylaw specs will be helpful too. They take some focus to get through for my purpose. but good to have. Thanks again for your generosity in helping me.
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby GreenLake » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:36 pm

Tim, not all spreaders fold. Mine don't. In which case it may be easier to simply raise the mainsail and use binoculars or a camera with high zoom to check that the main really goes up all the way (it's hard to verify that from inside the boat), but I've used shore-side photos to double check. Alternative is to lay the mast on some saw horses, that would leave the main a bit less supported, but we are only looking at the luff.

Seasick, my main halyard has a thimble spliced in it, to be used with a shackle to connect to the head board. That setup worked fine with my old sail, but I began to have some doubts whether it was too much distance for my "new" sail after it had seen a few seasons. I would normally have simply forgot the shackle and replaced it by a knot, but the thimble didn't want to pass through the grommet.

So, I decide to use a luggage tag hitch (modern nickname for "cow hitch").

Image

Normally you tie this by pushing a bight through the grommet (or the hole in the luggage tag, or the cow's nose ring), and then threading the two free ends of the rope through the bight. Alternatively, you can pull more of the bight through the hole and wrap it around the luggage tag. This works well if you don't have a free end. Neither method works well with a halyard attached to the mast (only one free end) and a sail (to big to "wrap").

OK, now comes method third, which works if the grommet isn't too small compared to the diameter of the halyard:
  • Push a generous bight through the grommet
  • Push the single free end (with its thimble) through the bight, (leaving lots of slack and a generous tail).
  • Pull the bight back out
  • This pulls through the free end, which now forms a bight on the other side of the grommet and around the standing part of the halyard
  • Loop the tail of the free end through the bight as well, to complete the hitch

Having a thimble, or a bulky stopper knot at then end of the halyard prevents the free end from sliding back through the hitch and undoing it (for example, when the sail is flogging). I've used this hitch for a season or so and it's never failed and given me a good three inches of extra room to raise the sail.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby TIM WEBB » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:32 pm

John, I do it a bit differently: since I know from the "ground exercise" where the boom needs to be, I can cleat off the boom downhaul with the gooseneck slide resting on the cleat tube when rigging up the boat before launch. When I raise the main, the luff will be tight every time, guaranteed. 'Course, I'm using sail slugs as well, which are much easier than the boltrope ...

GL, I agree that the whole exercise of laying the rig out on the ground may not be practical, or even necessary, for some, just relating what I did when I got new sails some years ago. The goal in my case was to make sure everything "fit", which is what it seemed to me that seasick was trying to accomplish. Yes, with the rig raised on the boat, it *is* difficult to see/know if the main is as high as it will go, hence my "ground exercise".

Seasick, yes, the boom DH cleat/tube is meant to be adjustable. If it's been set at it's present location for a long time, you may find it difficult to loosen the screws, and difficult to move it even when they are loose, but it can be done. Then, yes, once you have it where you want it, the screwed down cleat holds it in place. I had to move mine down when I got the new main - either it's luff is long or TRW's mast is short, but her boom seems to sit a lot lower than those of other DS's, even with the main as high as I can raise it. Also, don't confuse the tack cringle (the "hole" where the luff meets the foot) with the Cunningham cringle - two different animals. The tack cringle should be held in place by the tack pin cast into the forward boom cap.

You'll get it all sorted out and be sailing effortlessly in no time! Just enjoy the journey!
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby jeadstx » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:19 am

I know where my boom is supposed to be when the main is up. If the boom doesn't rise to that point I know I may have a jam at the gooseneck slide and can correct it. My downhaul cleat is pretty much stuck in place. Even break free solvents haven't worked. I use slugs on my sail also, much easier to raise the main.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby seasick » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:32 am

I will make sure the boom rides free going forward, jeadstx. It's something I would not have checked otherwise, so a good tip for various reasons.

Tim I must admit I did not know to attach the tack end (cringle) of my sail to the tack pin at the end of the boom! I will look and secure it there. This could be a big part of the problem there that creates the "hole"( i.e luff) in the bottom of the sail! Then I will look above for a grommet for the cunningham. Thank you. It's apparent that no information is too basic for me yet. First time rigging on my own.

I like the idea of the binoculars or my zoom to check the height of the main.

My headboard can be tied directly to the halyard without the shackle if need be. So that will be my next trick if necessary. The boom lifted last year so it was okay then, but I do recall there still being a "hole" at the bottom of the sail... not as bad as this year. But now with securing it to the tack pin and likely the use of the cunningham (i know I didn't have that in use last year) This will probably solve that. I will be sure to let you all know how I make out.

I'm far less frustrated knowing that I have someplace to turn for answers and help, and I'm starting to enjoy the boat now! I actually feel that I can become adept at this and feel confident. Thank you all.
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby ldeikis » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:00 pm

I'll chime in as a new DS sailor who also struggled with getting the sail all the way up and/or the tack nice and tight.

I found the pin in the gooseneck (that slides inside the sail track) will jam as I raise the sail if I'm not lifting the boom, too. Somehow the way the sail pulls up on the boom puts some weird load on it and it binds-- not quite sure why, since it pivots in all directions. This was keeping me from getting the sail up all the way, no matter how hard I tug on the downhaul. Once I realized what was going on, I started lifting the boom up *above* its normal position while I hoisted the last bit of sail, then tightened the downhaul to tug the boom back into position. It may be you're having a similar issue, and jostling the gooseneck fitting around could help it free up and slide down.

I also realized that no matter how tightly I tug the downhaul, I can't get the tack tight enough to look good. I think this may be because the slugs in my sail were an add on (they were there when I bought the bought the boat, so I don't really know) and they move the luff and boltrope back a bit in relation to the cringle that pins to the gooseneck. That makes sort of a pocket that can't be tightened away with the downhaul. I discovered this when I tied a reef in and suddenly had a really nice, flat sail. I haven't tried tugging on the cunningham cringle to take the slack out of the tack there, but it's next on my list.

Luke
'74 DSII sailing Haverstraw Bay and the lower Hudson River
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby GreenLake » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:03 pm

Looks like some of the sails are so long in the luff that they need either a bit of cunningham or the boom lowered. But the "hole" reported is definitely not OK and due to the tack not being pinned down.

On the boom binding. When I raise my sail all the way the boom comes up a bit. I then cleat the halyard and pull the boom down and tie it off.

It's important to also have the outhaul slack as you raise the sail; otherwise you'd have to fight any tension there.

On the reefed sail being flatter, make sure that your outhaul is tensioned after you have tied off the boom. Outhaul is loose for light winds to add a pit more curve and power up the sail, but it should be tight again for very light winds (in those conditions the air can't flow around a deep curve without separating prematurely).

Sail slugs add dimension fore and aft, so add to the length of the foot of the sail. You can run out of room there as well with some sails. When I first wanted to set up a 4:1 outhaul, I tied a small double block to the end boom fitting and a single block to the sail. I ended up with the condition known as "chock-a-block" where the blocks touch, but the outhaul wasn't tight enough. I had to ditch the single block (I now take an extra turn through the grommet) to get enough room. If I were adding sail slugs, I would have to find some way to get an extra inch of room at the end of the boom.
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby jeadstx » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:59 pm

There is a spray lubricant for the sail track that I have seen somewhere. I keep wanting to get some.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:38 pm

jeadstx wrote:I know where my boom is supposed to be when the main is up. If the boom doesn't rise to that point I know I may have a jam at the gooseneck slide and can correct it. My downhaul cleat is pretty much stuck in place. Even break free solvents haven't worked. I use slugs on my sail also, much easier to raise the main.

John

John, I guess I just don't get why the boom would be moving (rising?) at all when raising the main? If you know where it should be, then why not just cleat off the boom downhaul at that location before raising the main?

You say that your DH cleat is stuck in place: it sounds like it is stuck lower than it needs to be for your gooseneck slide to sit on top of the tube, cleated off, to be able to still raise the main and get a tight luff? If that's the case, you might want to make a mark on the mast (sharpie or what have you) where the GN needs to be in order to have a tight luff with the main fully raised, then cleat off the boom DH at that mark before raising the main? Sure sounds easier than trying to wrestle the main halyard, gooseneck, and boom DH all at the same time, slugs or not ... ?

TRW's boom DH cleat was pretty much frozen in place when She got me. I mangled it when trying to adjust it, and it was one of the first things I ever ordered from D&R ... ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:51 pm

jeadstx wrote:There is a spray lubricant for the sail track that I have seen somewhere. I keep wanting to get some.

John

I've found that Elmer's Slide-All works great for this John.
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
TIM WEBB
 
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Re: So, about this downhaul...

Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:17 pm

This has become a very interesting discussion! Sorry seasick if we (I?) may have hijacked your thread, but hopefully you might learn a bit from this as well.

My procedure is as such, after performing the above rig-on-the-ground exercise:

When rigging up the boat at the ramps, among other various and sundry things, raise the mast, then drop the boom gooseneck slide into the slot, and let it come to rest atop the boom DH cleat tube. Cleat off boom DH, and attach topping lift, mainsheet shackle, and vang (all fairly loose). Insert main foot boltrope into boom slot, pin tack with gooseneck pin, cleat off outhaul, and run reef line through cringle in main, down to boom block, and forward to clam cleat. Feed main luff slugs into slot and close mastgate. Attach main halyard to headboard and cleat off loosely. Roll up main and bungee-ball it to the boom.

Then, on the water, all you need to do is pop off the bungees and raise the main. Luff will be tight every time, guaranteed, and there's no messing around with trying to get the gooseneck where you want it and cleating it off - it's already done! It's no different than if you were using a fixed gooseneck, which many if not all of the "serious" racers are ...

The only time I uncleat the gooseneck is when I'm deploying the boom tent, but that's an entirely different story ... ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
TIM WEBB
 
Posts: 1208
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:28 pm
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