Jib car Assembly

[ciscovt]

The cam cleats on my DS III jib tracks are shot or rather the springs in them are shot. The mounting centers on these are 1.75" which is more than the Rostan C series at 1.5" which means just trying to replace the cam cleats doesn't seem readily feasible. I have talked with Rudy at D&R and to install their replacement jib cars I would need to install an inspection port on both sides to access the bolts inside the hull holding the existing jib cars. I am sort of reluctant to do that without exploring any alternatives.
Has anyone created an alternative setup that works well or do I just have to bite the bullet and make this a project on the list.

Thank you,
Scott

[GreenLake]

Scott,

it's possible to get cam cleats that are spaced 1.75" or 42 mm apart. Whether you can locate a local supplier or one that will ship to you is another matter, but here's at least one link I pulled up: http://www.speedsails.co.uk/P~Servo_Large_22_Cleat_42mm_SERVO22-42.html

[IslandFarmer]

Just off the phone with Rudy at D+R Marine regarding replacement of the jib lead cars on my DSII which are driving me crazy. See attached port and starboard.
He tells me that Ronstan is no longer making the combination lead/cam cars and that he is working with DS customers to design a new product ... hoping it will be up on their website this fall. I said my dream would be a car with a 360° free swivel to which a lead and cam attaches so the sheet can be pulled and cleated when I am solo or with crew and in light or heavy air. He has a lot of would-be customers like me who don't want to have to drill any holes so want something that fits on the existing jib tracks ... in my case (DSII 1983) on insides of the cockpit.

[GleamB]

Timing of the previous post is perfect. Being new to sailing, I just used the the jib for the first time, last week. The previous owner of my 1984 DS ll only used the mainsail. I was in the boat, with an experienced sailor, who was BAFFLED by the car/ cam setup. It seems you pull up on one side and down on the other to release the cam. I wanted to get a feel of how to use the jib, if I go out solo. Now, I’m not comfortable with the setup. He suggested installing a swivel cam on the top corners of the cuddy. I’m not sure if you get the proper amount of spread of the jib sheets that way. Any suggestions, with pictures , would be appreciated.
Also, do the jib sheets go outside or inside of the shrouds?

[GreenLake]

Anybody if you are new to sailing like @GleamB, check out this thread on "Basic Concepts and Techniques".

@GleamB: in answer to your question: the jib sheets go inside the shrouds. (And the DS sails a lot better with a jib). (Some DSs have been set up with Barber inhauls to pull the jib sheets even further inward, but I wouldn't worry about that for a beginner).

Mounting a different track on a DSII is a bit more work than on the DS1 I own, but it can be done: you may need to cut some holes for inspection ports / deck plates that you can use to get to the inside so you can place proper backing. The circular lids for those ports unscrew easily without tools which means that you can attach a pocket to the inside and have a place to stash stuff that you don't want to get lost or wet. So, dual use.

I'm partial to a setup where the cleats are not combined with the track cars. I was able to get a standard Harken track, attach ratchet blocks to the cars and put a set of cleats on the CB trunk - mine are on a bracket that a local shop made for me, but other people have made their own supports.

So, if you don't like the existing system you could mount the equivalent of this setup even on a DSII:



Ratchet blocks help cut the force needed to hold a sheet. Useful if you want to hold a sheet in your hand for better responsiveness. Mine have a nice auto setting that disables the ratchet action when the sheet's not loaded (light winds or when I want to release the sheet). I also mounted on for the main, and wouldn't want to be without one.

[GleamB]

Thanks, GreenLake
Where would I purchase ratchet blocks.?
Where do they mount? One on each side for jib sheets?
Need backing on a DS ll ?
Where does the ratchet block for the main sheet mount?
Pictures are always appreciated.
Thanks for the time you take to respond to my questions. Lots to learn.

[GreenLake]

These guys have a good selection of sailing parts: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/ronstan ... rbit-block

There's a 40mm as well, but my jib sheet was too big (and too nice to replace at the time). Otherwise, I might have gone a size smaller. Whatever you get, make sure it has an "auto" setting. You want to be able to set that and forget it, and not have to worry about engaging disengaging the ratchet function manually.

I've already placed a photo showing one of the two jib leads with the replacement ratchet block.

The cars for the Harken Small Boat Jib Lead Track that I had on my boat could be pulled out and opened from the back to remove the block that came with them and then it was easy to install the new blocks. If whatever tracks you get don't have cars that can be opened, it might still be possible to cut away the old blocks leaving a loop to attach the ratchet blocks. That's something that you need to figure out with access to the actual parts.

My mainsheet has a rear traveler, so it goes up, and then back. That 90 degree turn is where I placed my ratchet block for the main:



I use really grippy line that holds well in the ratchet. Others have gone to greater length, even putting two ratchets into the main sheet - I stopped with the one shown because this worked for me in my sailing conditions.

On a DSII you will need to place some inspection ports in the seat backs, not too far from where you want to mount the tracks. You might also probe whether the existing tracks have some backing wood already in place and whether it's possible for you to attach the new track using the same (and without losing it down the space between the hulls).

[IslandFarmer]

I'm just off the phone with Rudy about this issue again. It's been a year and a few days since my post about Rudy's plan to sell a redesigned jib car assembly with a swivel. What with covid etc., he was unable to find a company to produce it last year, but is hopeful to have something this fall. Two companies have expressed interest. I'm going to hold out for this ... not keen on adding cleats on my CB trunk, as appealing as the rachet block solution sounds. I will, however, start tying the ends of my jib sheets together. Another GL tip.

[GreenLake]

There's an alternative to jib cars. You can use a fixed cleat on the coaming / side deck and then rig a donwhaul (similar to a barber hauler, but pulling down and a bit forward). You may even be able to connect that line to the same floating block as your Barber inhaul. The idea is that pulling down on the jib sheet is the same as moving the fairlead forward.

This would allow you to use existing hardware (for example the Vanguard 15 has a nice set of fixed jib fairlead / cleats that should still be on the market).

My sailmaker, interestingly enough suggested I simply leave the jib cars in the most forward position for all conditions. I'm not sure I buy that, but his thinking clearly was that the Barber inhauls were more critical. As it turns out, I rarely remember to check the position of the jib cars, but will adjust the inhauls a lot.

[michaelstalone]

A couple questions related to this post:
1. I’ve got cleats on top of the cuddy I’ve been using for my jib sheets. I was thinking of installing tracks instead. Thoughts? Would I install them facing up on the side deck or facing in on the inner sidewall/ coaming/ bench back?
2. I’ve got a block and cleat on the side deck I don’t use. What are those for? Is that the alternative option you were talking about GL?

Thanks!

[prochase]

The jib trim setup is just fine!

I have a Precision DS1 and it works quite well.

Eric
Hull #13017

[GreenLake]

2. I’ve got a block and cleat on the side deck I don’t use. What are those for?

They look like they might be for a spinnaker. There would be 180 turning blocks near the stern cleats. The sheet would go from the clew to the turning block at the stern, then to the cheek blocks shown in the picture, and cleated as shown.

[IslandFarmer]

Back in 2020 I asked about alternatives to what came on my boat (photos above), which I found very unsatisfactory. At the end of 2021, one of the tracks pulled out, so I now have an opportunity to change the set-up and get something that works for sailing singlehanded or with a crew. I was so discouraged that it stayed in the barn this year. I'd like to get back out next season.

Two questions:

1. I'm wondering if I should go with the new jib cars Rudy at D&R Marine is now selling on which the swivel (360º ?) is in the plane of the track/seat back instead of perpendicular to it as before (180º). Does anyone have experience with these?
https://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DS147

D&R Marine's jib cars

SwivelingJibCarPairDS147.jpg (17.54 KiB) Viewed 21625 times

2. My vision from the beginning was to keep the combination fairlead/cam cleat, but attach it to the jib track with a free 3-D swivel, keeping the jib tracks in the approximate same position. Has anyone done that? (I prefer not to mount jib lead/cleat on the rail or have a block in the track with cleat on the CB trunk as many have done. And I will not be adding downhaulers or barberhaulers. Trying to keep things simple. I don't race or cruise. Just enjoy going out for an hour or three.

[GreenLake]

Seems like you know what you want and why it works best for you, so I'd say, go for it.

Just need to make sure the cleats can follow the direction of the jib sheet as you pull on it. What you show in the picture would work if mounted on top (if I interpret the picture correctly, the pull from the jib sheet for these particular cars has to be in the same plane as the track is mounted on.)

The other side of the jib sheet can enter/exit the fairlead at any angle up to 90 degrees from centerline (in any plane) because of the circular symmetry of the fairlead. (Generally that would mean that the free end of the jib can't be more forward than 90 degrees or the fairlead would rotate so that the angle of entry would become > 90 degrees.

I don't know whether you can get a fairlead/cleat combo that can attach free-floating to an eye strap. Harken makes a small boat track that has cars that have just an eye strap and those would allow you to mount such a fairlead/cleat combo. Except they don't sell such a combo, so you would have to get the track / car from them, and source the combo elsewhere.

[IslandFarmer]

Somehow, I got on three related threads. . . .
To wrap this one up, as GL pointed out, the new cars and tracks from D&R are for deck mounting on a DSIII. Not appropriate for side mounting on the seatback of a DSII.
As I've written elsewhere, I'm going to replace my broken track with one just like it ($12 from D&R) with a G10 backplate and use the base of the jib car to attach a Ronstan swivel block with cam cleat. Today's task is to choose which.
Will post pictures come spring once I get the boat out of the barn and onto the trailer to work on. I've also decided to just do the port side this year and leave starboard with original setup. One thing at a time.