New DS II owner with some questions

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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby fyrfyterx » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:22 pm

can anyone post a pic of a topping lift set up?
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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby TIM WEBB » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:34 pm

I have a pic in my gallery of my old fixed length topping lift, but not the newer one I made, which was Spectra, and had a long "finger trap" at the lower end that made it adjustable. Easy peasy!
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby 109jb » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:59 pm

Resurrecting my thread from last year. I never did get the new rigging ordered, and actually haven't had the boat out any this year yet due to other commitments, but am getting ready to go now.

As I mentioned before, my boat has the cables on the jib and main halyards, but I am thinking about going to all rope halyards. The cables are in good shape without any kinks, but it seems that all rope halyards may be a bit more convenient with no splices, joints, extra hardware, etc. Particularly on the jib it would be nice since I have been practicing standing the mast using the jib halyard to help raise/hold the mast until I get the forestay connected. The way the wire halyard is, it isn't long enough to reach once the opposite end hits the block and I have to tie an extension on to use it for mast raising. Not a big deal but if I had all rope I wouldn't have this issue. Also, it appears that the pulleys the wire runs through are not V shaped like for wire, but round bottom for rope about 1/4" to 5/16" diameter.

So, Is there a bog benefit to the cable on the halyards?

Thanks.
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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby GreenLake » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:30 pm

After rereading your thread, here's my take: If the wire halyards are in good shape, just sail with them for a season or two. You've not been able to use your boat, you tell us, which makes me think getting out on the water should be your highest priority. Tying a bit of line onto the Jib halyard to be able to use it to raise the mast seems a very slight annoyance. If it really bugs you, get two shackles and a dedicated bit of rope, so you only have to snap it in place.

As for replacing the rope tail, that one can be almost any cheap rope and you don't need to waste time planning the best approach.

Later, you can sit at home some winter and splice double-braid to Amsteel to make the modern equivalent of the wire-to-rope halyard. You'll find instructions at http://L-36.com (may have to poke around the site for a bit to find the write-ups: they are actually quite good). I built one like that, it was a fun project; I did make the mistake of making it a bit short - you'll want the total length to be the length of the forestay + height of the halyard block + any extra needed to reach the cleat. If you make it longer, you just have an annoying long tail. You may find that having a dedicated extension for use in mast raising is still a good idea, so that you can remove it once the mast is up (with and all-rope halyard it might be possible to add the extension to the tail, if you find that more convenient).

Good luck out on the water.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby 109jb » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:34 pm

Thanks for the reply. If it weren't that I was already going to have to order rope I would just use it for a while. Since many of the ropes I have are shot as far as condition, or not real suitable for the purpose, I do have to place and order and switching to all rope halyards now would just mean changing the order quantity. What I really was interested in is if there was any great benefit one way or another when comparing all-rope halyards to a rope wire combo arrangement?
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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby GreenLake » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:50 pm

I get you about wanting to do everything at once. Also, I have the convenience of just driving down the road to a well-stocked place, where I can browse. I usually don't mind visiting that place multiple times :)

Now, about your question.

What you don't want to do is use any regular (double braided) rope for an all-rope halyard. The stretch is definitely going to make it perform worse than the rope/wire combo.

The alternative is a combo using Dyneema (Amsteel etc.) in place of the wire. That gives you the same low stretch and is lighter (always a good thing). However, to do that right takes a bit more time and educating yourself on how to splice rope to Dyneema. There are some ropes that are covered Dyneema, which you could use instead - you'd be paying extra for the "tail", but they would be usable as a single piece.

You would select them based on the lowest diameter that still gives you acceptable stretch (breaking strength as such is generally never an issue, but higher strength means less stretch as rope stretches by a known percentage when you load it to about breaking strength an proportionally less when you stay below that value). They would probably be quite thin (1/8" ?) which is good for saving weight aloft, but may give you handling issues.

For the main, you normally raise it with the boom free until you get full hoist, then pull the boom down to the stop to get tension on the luff. That's how it works on my DS1. If your's is different, and you need to set the tension by pulling on the halyard, smaller diameter rope can be inconvenient (also need to make sure it's gripped well in your cleats - pure Amsteel tends to be too slippery that's why it's used in a combo).

For the jib halyard you may eventually add some tensioner (some way to get 2:1 or 3:1 purchase, so that you can easily adjust the tension on the luff according to the wind conditions).

That's also something you may want to plan out in some detail - that was the reason for my suggestion not to rush into replacing a working setup w/ wire-rope combo.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby 109jb » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:18 pm

Thanks again Green Lake. That gives me what I need to know. So a standard double braid has too much stretch, but because it is used in conjunction with something else with low stretch (dyneema, Amsteel, wire), only a short length of the double braid is doing anything one the sail is raised because most of it is just coiled up in the cockpit.

I guess I have 3 routes I could go:

1. I could buy standard double braid and use it with the wire.

2. I could just buy something a suitable low-stretch high tech rope in the full length needed to go up and then back down the mast for a single piece all rope halyard.

3. I could buys standard double braid and some high tech rope to make a 1/2 high tech, 1/2 double braid halyard.

I'm leaning toward option 1 for now but buying all the materials now for option 3. The double braid could be used for the wire now and later spliced to the high tech rope. So for the high tech rope to splice to the double braid I see the Amsteel, but what diameter would be a good one for the main and jib halyards to splice to the double braid?
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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby GreenLake » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:21 pm

For diameters check my older thread entitled "Rope for various Lines".

I think the "tail on my main sheet is 3/16" double braid and the Amsteel is thinner - like 1/8"; I've found that sometimes I need two sizes for the Amsteel as the splice doesn't always work with the advertised sizes. So, for example, I may have a couple of feet of 3/16 Amsteel and use it as an "adapter", with most of the remainder of the halyard 1/8". Requires an Amsteel to Amsteel splice but those are easy. If you order everything ahead of time, order a few feed of Amsteel one size up from your halyard. If you don't need them, you can always turn them into a soft shackle.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: New DS II owner with some questions

Postby 109jb » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:54 pm

Thanks again Greenlake. You answered exactly what I was wondering. That being if splicing might dictate diameters needed.
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