Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Moderator: GreenLake

Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby GreenLake » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:16 pm

There's constant small motion and then there's the effects of high winds. If the cleats give a bit in regular use, you will eventually see cracked gel coat, because gel coat really doesn't have a lot of give in it. That would give you a way to detect critical weakness in the backing. A dual mooring pennant would of course have the added benefit of guarding against loss of one of them, e.g. due to chafe.

Which then leads to the question of what other points of failure it would be worth to investigate.
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:40 pm

I think if you used snubbers on your mooring pendant you would be OK.

Your boat has no L-bar?!?!?!

What year is she? TRW is a '79. I thought all the DS2's (if not all DS's) had them ...
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(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby klb67 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:02 pm

I have a pic in my profile of my jib sheet cam cleats and auto ratchet blocks for the jib sheets for my DS II, and I like this set up. I now use a small continuous loop of 12 strand dyneema in a prusik knot in the center of the jib sheet and a soft shackle to attach the jib to the loop.
1976 DSII - #8039
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby GreenLake » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:52 pm

Would that be this picture?

2044
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby DigitalMechanic » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:49 am

2185

This works good for me. A couple of things from earlier comments...

1. Captive vs non captive centerboard cleats - I can see advantages to both. However, with the captive cleating arrangement I use, I find that I can hold both lines in each hand, releasing the line coming from the other side of the boat, while pulling up and over the captive part of the cleat during a tack/gybe. It feels more natural to me to release one line and bring a separate one in, vs a single continuous line (but that is just me... maybe getting into my own head :D ). Anyways, if you are not ready to cross the boat on a tack/gybe, having the ability to pull the sheet over something in the center of the boat (backwards across the captive part of the cleat) seems convenient. At either rate the parts to make the the cleats captive cost a buck or 2. Try it both ways before you goop it up with 5200 :wink:

2. Metal plate in centerboard truck - There is one under the mainsheet swivel cleat on the DSII. I had to drill and tap with machine screws. Not sure what it is made of, but I broke a few taps in the process. That metal is tough. The rest of the centerboard trunk (where the jib cleats would go) is just fiberglass... very thick fiberglass. With that said, the centerboard trunk is built up pretty thick, and the force on the jib sheet is pretty low. I think your cleats will be rated for 300lbs or so, which if you think about it you really have little mechanical advantage in the jib sheet setup on these boats. It is not needed. Without ratchets you are basically nearly holding the natural force of the jib that is against you in hand. It is not that much (but you will want those ratchets or have it cleated off in a breeze). Point being your centerboard trunk is stronger than your cleats and blocks, etc. I just screwed SS tapping screws into the cleats. Have not had any problems are spider cracking etc.

4. Stem head project - Nice! I have not done anything there (my foredeck is still a virgin, no holes in it yet), but thought about reinforcing the standing rigging. I though about using an L-shaped piece of SS sheet metal that the stem head and bow eye would be bolted to inside the hull. This would give the stem head support from the deck horizontally, and also vertically from the bow. As for the side stays, I think Tim Web has the right idea with the pipe mod he did. Combined you would be able to considerably tighten the rig... if you want her to have a more "race boat" like feel :twisted:
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby GreenLake » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:29 pm

5200 = don't :shock:

While it's undoubtedly a very fine product, it's more permanent than you'll ever want for installing hardware. With the lifetimes some of these boats have reached, you'll easily exceed the service life of your cleats. I had aftermarket cleats on my boat; my guess is they were top of the line in the mid 80's, yet soon after I got them, I did replace them because the plastic finally started to crumble from UV exposure.

Luckily, no goop of any kind had been used on them.
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby DigitalMechanic » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:58 pm

Butyl tape seems to be all the new rage. Seems to makes sense if you can find some quality stuff.
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby GreenLake » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:20 am

Butyl tape is needed when you want to seal deck fittings. And as it never hardens, it's a pretty good choice, apparently, for bedding deck hardware. However, on a DS, with no living quarters below deck, and no cored decks, there's less need to seal that meticulously against moisture ingress. At least one might argue that.

There's overpressure in the CB trunk when the boat is sailed at speed and with a big enough opening, significant amounts of water can shoot out - however, none of my bolts across the CB trunk are sealed and there are no leaks. (My fitting is a bit different, so it's through-bolted, with the bolts just below the top. If there was a scenario where one might observe a leak from an unsealed connection this should have been it, but I observe no water) .

If this was on a deck of some "big" boat, I would have had to have been very careful to seal (and to protect exposed core). But I don't think the same worries apply here.
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby klb67 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:29 pm

Greenlake posted my pic - thanks. I didn't have time to find it and figure out how. As I recall, I located and drilled the holes to mount the cam cleats, waxed the threads of the stainless machine screws, put some epoxy in the holes and threaded the screws in until the epoxy hardened. Backed out the screws, placed the cam cleat and reinstalled the screws. I don't think I used any type of sealant or adhesive under the cam cleats, and I certainly wouldn't use 5200.

Edited to add - the silicone you see in the pic was added by the prior owner. I've removed much of it, but there remains some on some of the fittings I haven't changed, eliminated or otherwise dealt with.
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby badnews » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:00 pm

Sorry, I'm quite late to this party - I only drop by this forum occasionally.

I have installed cleats on centerboard trunk on a Daysailer II.

DigitalMechanic has a thread titled "Mainsheet setup and Purchase System" in which he and the late great John Alesch (JeadSTX) concluded you could go about 0.75 inches into the trunk without interfering with the centerboard. I didn't go quite this deep, probably closer to 0.5 inches. No problems.

When I did the install, I decided to use Harken wire fairleads and angle blocks with H150 cam cleats. I replaced the cleats on the jib cars with Harken 57mm Carbo Ratchematic automatic ratchet blocks based on reports of people finding the holding power with the smaller size inadequate. You get barely 90* worth of wrap around those blocks, so you won't see near their max potential holding power. I chose the auto version because I didn't want to be trying to go forward or to the leeward side to change settings while single handing.

It needs to be noted that the Harken angle blocks and the centerboard trunk are not the same angle. This meant that I could not simply drill a vertical hole. To ensure I got things right I made a small brass bushing on a lathe and used it to guide the drill. If you are very accomplished at drilling things by hand you could just send it. I'm not, so I didn't.

I threaded fiberglass itself and ran #10 machine screws in with 3M 4200 and hoped for the best. So far so good.

On my boat the sealant or filler in between the deck and hull was literally falling out but the joint itself was still tightly bonded. I flipped the hull over on the lawn supported by some old truck tires and filled all cracks with 3M 5200. If I tear the deck off now I'll feel like I was really doing something.

Good luck with your project.

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jib cleats3.jpg
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby DigitalMechanic » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:52 pm

Curios question? Why did you level off the cleats with those spacers. I like the fairlead pointing down, and the back of the cleat elevated. I feel it makes it easier to cleat off sheet, especially when hiking out. I am pretty confident that O'Day designed the the 2 angled sections on the DSII centerboard trunk with that in mind, to angle the fairlead down, making it easier to pin the sheet from various sitting positions. What is your opinion of having the cleats level after sailing it some?
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby badnews » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:29 am

Before settling on this course of action I mocked up the install several ways. All tests were conducted while sitting on the rail as if hiking out. I believe you use bullseye fairleads placed in front of the cleats. I had bullseyes so I did experiment with that setup. I felt it was going to be awkward to play the sheet by hand and too easy to accidentally cleat the line. I also wasn't entirely happy with how high or low I was going to have to reach to cleat and uncleat with any of the combinations I could work up without the angled spacers. With this solution the cleat is still angled away from the windward rail, just not as much. In practice it worked out really well - the angle is about spot on. It's easy to cleat and uncleat the sheet, but also possible to play it by hand with a very natural motion. If I had to do this over again, I would do the same thing.

I think there's a variety of valid solutions, and the best one is probably determined as much by the physical size and shape of the captain or crew as anything else.
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:38 am

Nice feedback. Even at the angle I am working with and the bullseye style fairleads that sit out in front, I still feel the necessity to add some extra "down force" effort to cleat at times, especially when hiked out... but I am tall-ish (6ft), and most of the time my crew is taller (6'1ft - 6'3ft). I am actually usually the shrimp onboard, lol.
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:49 pm

@badnews - thanks for sharing your setup. I'm curious to see that you have both the wire loop and the "bridge" across your cleats. I would have thought one of these to be redundant, but perhaps there's a subtle difference. It seems that the wire loop brings the sheet down in a way that better mimics a fairlead ahead of the cleat. Perhaps that's the reason why you don't see the same benefit of angling the cleats so that they "aim" at the level of the jib sheet tracks.

As you know, I have neither wire nor bridge on mine and aligning them with the jib track is needed to make sure the sheet is cleated securely. At times, the aid of a foot is needed to deflect the pull downward to cleat if I'm sitting on the gunwale. However, as you point out, conditions are different. We have enough days of light winds where I may be sailing the DS from the leeward side and then having open cleats is really much more convenient.
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Re: Putting cleats on the CB trunk

Postby badnews » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:32 pm

Hey Greenlake, they do serve somewhat different purposes.

In general, cam cleats will tolerate a fair amount of horizontal misalignment and some lesser degree of vertical misalignment. In this application, as the cleat and the block on the jib car are at different heights and not on the same plane, the sheet always enters the cleat at an angle. Additionally, adjustments to the jib cars cause the horizontal alignment to vary, although this is somewhat less critical. The wire fairleads on the load side direct the sheet into the cleat with as little misalignment as possible. You can see the sheet does change angle in the picture as it passes through. This is more noticeable under load - when the sheet is pulled taught the ratchet block can swing up higher and the change in angle becomes a bit more pronounced. Honestly, with the low loads on the sheet (there's what, 50 square feet of jib out there?) and the surplus holding power of the H150 cleat and decent sized line, this is largely unnecessary. Additionally, they aren't particularly rigid. If the sheet was under such load that the slight misalignment was testing the holding power of the cleat, they would probably just flex and deflect. However they are inexpensive and have some small benefit, and as I already had them (I ordered a variety of hardware and fittings for this project) I installed them.

The plastic fairleads on top of the cleats have no effect on the load side. They are meant to help guide the line into the cleat on the trim side. With them in place it is possible to cleat the line at a fairly significant angle - say from the stern of the boat. They also prevent the sheet from coming completely clear of the cleat (not really an issue in this case as the wire fairleads would prevent this anyway).

With this setup, there is no need for any karate foot action as all angles and leads were selected to make the jib sheets as easy to cleat, uncleat, and trim as possible for a 5' 5" female sitting on the rail. My 6' limbs can make do either way, but the sheets cleat at somewhere around waist level and uncleat below shoulder level - an easy reach for about anyone. I didn't want anyone to have to take their feet out of the hiking straps (still yet to be installed of course... :roll: ) or lean down into the boat to cleat off. During rigging the sheets are pulled through the fairleads and cleats and a stopper knot is tied (they're quite long). If the need arises to blow the sheets they can be yanked upwards and allowed to run or even thrown into the center of the boat with no chance of losing them. The issues with the original jib car mounted cleats are pretty well known and have been discussed in a number of places on the forum, but it was immediately evident that if the breeze was up it took pretty significant muscle to uncleat the sheet. It would often become tightly wedged and acrobatics would ensue. One user's comment about how an inability to blow the jib preceded nearly every Daysailer capsize he had seen made a lot of sense to me. There was also so much drag coming through the bullseyes on the original jib cars that the crew often had to really fight to sheet in the last 6-12" after a tack.

This isn't a perfect solution for everyone or everything, but it's been effective so far. If I tear a cleat out of the centerboard trunk or end up swimming because of it I'll certainly share that as well. I have a few more projects and updates coming this spring and will collect them all into a build thread.
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