mast stepping help

Moderator: GreenLake

mast stepping help

Postby Papajoe » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:41 pm

I just got a very great condition 79 Daysailer. I am trying to figure out the best way to step the mast by myself. I will be sailing most of, if not all of the time alone. I have searched all over YouTube and the only video that I can find on this. is a daysailer that has been modified with a hinged mast. Thank you in advance for any help on this matter.
Last edited by Papajoe on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:21 pm

The problem with a hinged mast is that it isn't stable once upright until all the stays are connected. The exception would "real" tabernacles, the ones that have a boxy shape that gave the name to this device. What your boat and every other DS with a deck stepped mast has is merely a mast hinge that can't steady the mast.

So your challenge is, how to you keep the mast stable until you can connect the stays (without a helper). I have a smaller boat with a deck stepped mast, and have never tried to raise/lower the mast singlehanded - while I do the same for my keel-stepped DS many times a year.

We'll get a real expert to chime in here shortly, but I believe the geometry allows the side stays to stay in place, so your task reduces to keeping the mast stable side-to-side until it's raised enough for the side stays to be stretched. After that, you only have to make sure it doesn't fall back down.

One thing people often do is connect something like a halyard to the stemhead fitting, pulling it tight as the mast goes up and then cleating it. That, together with the side stays will hold the mast while you fasten and tension the forestay.

On my other boat I don't leave the side stays on, hence the need for a helper, but the last step is just that: using a halyard as a temporary forestay. (On that boat, the forestay is integral to the furled jib) and is tensioned with the jib halyard. That would apply if you switched your jib to a roller furler one; depending on conditions you may want to do something like that to help depower the boat. (You should also have reef points so you can reduce the area of the main to keep it manageable).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby Papajoe » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:20 am

Thank you for the info. I have tried several times to get it up myself. The way I did it was to put the mast in the travel cradles with the bottom of the mast facing forward. Then I was sliding it back until the bottom of the mast is at the hole in the deck. as I lifted the mast it goes up great until the point where the mast spills out of the hole. I have thought about mounting something on the deck just in front of the hole to help hold it the mast there until I could get it high for it to slip in the hole. Has anyone does this or anything else to get the mast up?
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby Champlaner » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:23 am

Hi Joe,
I'm still struggling with a keel stepped mast as well. GreenLake (our ever-helpful forum moderator) has posted this link in other posts showing a contraption he inherited. http://forum.daysailer.org/greenlake/da ... ising.html
I haven't tried that yet since I was keeping the boat on the water all season and only had to step the mast once. This year my borrowed mooring at someone''s residence is on hold due to the shutdown, so I'm trying to devise a solution. I really want to keep sailing with the one-piece mast even though I don't race or anything like that.

One thing I did for inside the cuddy of my DSII was cut a piece of Schedule 40 (white) PVC 3" pipe (measured by I.D.) to serve as a guide down to the mast step casting. (I would still have trouble hitting the casting even after the mast was through the deck.) I had to cut a 5 degree angle at each end of the PVC (long to long) and got lucky with a wedge fit. The 3" internal diameter of the pipe is perfect for my casting; it even friction fits on the front and back ends of the casting. You could use 3" to 3" flexible pvc couplings at each end of the pipe if you want to avoid having to get the press fit by cutting. Anyway, I tried it for the first time this week and it worked pretty well. I had to shake the mast from side to side a little to get the last half-inch down onto the casting. So that helped some.

But getting the mast up there and through the partner is still insane. I can do it solo by footing the mast against the trailer tire (yeah, great), standing it up, jump onto boat via sheetrock bucket while holding mast with one hand, etc. I'm 6'1" and used to handling ladders but this way is still very challenging and dangerous to bystanders. I would love to have a removable version of the hinge GreenLake inherited, and I'm now wondering if something could be fashioned with the 3" pipe instead of the sheet metal shown. But the removable part is maybe asking too much. And you're right, the internet doesn't have many ideas on the subject--probably since Daysailers are about as large a boat as some can manage solo for keel stepping. Maybe if I find a boat launch with a forked tree branch and park so the partner (hole) is right under the fork, I could lean the mast in the fork and maintain the lean until the last inch or two. I'll be sure to post a "hold my beer" type video if I find the right spot! Good luck and happy sailing!!
--Nick.
'77 DSII #8420
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:18 pm

Joe,

I'm confused. Your question spoke of a hinged mast, but your follow-up seems to describe a keel stepped mast, that needs to be dropped through the hole (mast partners) in the deck. If it's the latter, then @champlaner pointed you to my document how to make raising a keel-stepped mast a snap.

Here are some photos of the contraption:
267915451033
(Click to enlarge)

There are three essential parts to this.
  1. A beefy support, to anchor it securely. This version sports an aluminum disk, which I've since found handy for mounting various fairleads on, but other solutions are in principle possible
  2. A sturdy hinge.
  3. And a sleeve that serves to hold the mast foot, but also guides it. This one has a wooden base to attach the hinge and to provide an offset necessitated by the hinge position.
If you can secure a hinge firmly to a piece of large-diameter PVC pipe, that might work.

Lifting the mast even a bit makes the foot engage in the "hole" (mast partners) and it will eventually drop in once the mast is vertical. I found that I do not need anything to prevent the mast from sliding along the sleeve while lifting it. I stand in the middle of the cockpit, lift the mast onto my shoulder first, then turn and push straight up while stepping over the thwarts.

Once vertical (and only then) the mast partners will allow the mast to be lowered, but only if close to the correct angle. Controlling the descent is relatively easy, as is keeping the mast upright. I almost prefer if the area is not flat but with slight tilt so the mast isn't fully vertical, but tipped back a bit relative to the horizontal.

@Champlaner: with a bit of practice I've gotten quite good at hitting my target (pin of my mast jack). If I miss, I bend down and take a peek to see which direction to correct. As long as the mast is that far down, it's not going to fall as easily and I don't need to be in the perfect stance or have my arms in the most advantageous position for controlling it, so I can take a quick look below. However, some "cup" like targeting guide would take the guess work out.

The write-up also includes notes on a tripod. If you are short or have shoulder problems, this lets you control a mast. Works for hinged masts, or keel-stepped masts with hinged sleeve. I prefer keeping up my strength as I can save a few minutes by not using the tripod, but it otherwise works as intended and I keep it around "in case".

Good luck!
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby Papajoe » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:04 pm

Champlaner wrote:Hi Joe,
I'm still struggling with a keel stepped mast as well. GreenLake (our ever-helpful forum moderator) has posted this link in other posts showing a contraption he inherited. https://forum.daysailer.org/greenlake/d ... ising.html
I haven't tried that yet since I was keeping the boat on the water all season and only had to step the mast once. This year my borrowed mooring at someone''s residence is on hold due to the shutdown, so I'm trying to devise a solution. I really want to keep sailing with the one-piece mast even though I don't race or anything like that.

One thing I did for inside the cuddy of my DSII was cut a piece of Schedule 40 (white) PVC 3" pipe (measured by I.D.) to serve as a guide down to the mast step casting. (I would still have trouble hitting the casting even after the mast was through the deck.) I had to cut a 5 degree angle at each end of the PVC (long to long) and got lucky with a wedge fit. The 3" internal diameter of the pipe is perfect for my casting; it even friction fits on the front and back ends of the casting. You could use 3" to 3" flexible pvc couplings at each end of the pipe if you want to avoid having to get the press fit by cutting. Anyway, I tried it for the first time this week and it worked pretty well. I had to shake the mast from side to side a little to get the last half-inch down onto the casting. So that helped some.

But getting the mast up there and through the partner is still insane. I can do it solo by footing the mast against the trailer tire (yeah, great), standing it up, jump onto boat via sheetrock bucket while holding mast with one hand, etc. I'm 6'1" and used to handling ladders but this way is still very challenging and dangerous to bystanders. I would love to have a removable version of the hinge GreenLake inherited, and I'm now wondering if something could be fashioned with the 3" pipe instead of the sheet metal shown. But the removable part is maybe asking too much. And you're right, the internet doesn't have many ideas on the subject--probably since Daysailers are about as large a boat as some can manage solo for keel stepping. Maybe if I find a boat launch with a forked tree branch and park so the partner (hole) is right under the fork, I could lean the mast in the fork and maintain the lean until the last inch or two. I'll be sure to post a "hold my beer" type video if I find the right spot! Good luck and happy sailing!!
--Nick.


Thank you.
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby Papajoe » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:16 pm

GreenLake wrote:Joe,

I'm confused. Your question spoke of a hinged mast, but your follow-up seems to describe a keel stepped mast, that needs to be dropped through the hole (mast partners) in the deck. If it's the latter, then @champlaner pointed you to my document how to make raising a keel-stepped mast a snap.

Here are some photos of the contraption:
267915451033
(Click to enlarge)

There are three essential parts to this.
  1. A beefy support, to anchor it securely. This version sports an aluminum disk, which I've since found handy for mounting various fairleads on, but other solutions are in principle possible
  2. A sturdy hinge.
  3. And a sleeve that serves to hold the mast foot, but also guides it. This one has a wooden base to attach the hinge and to provide an offset necessitated by the hinge position.
If you can secure a hinge firmly to a piece of large-diameter PVC pipe, that might work.

Lifting the mast even a bit makes the foot engage in the "hole" (mast partners) and it will eventually drop in once the mast is vertical. I found that I do not need anything to prevent the mast from sliding along the sleeve while lifting it. I stand in the middle of the cockpit, lift the mast onto my shoulder first, then turn and push straight up while stepping over the thwarts.

Once vertical (and only then) the mast partners will allow the mast to be lowered, but only if close to the correct angle. Controlling the descent is relatively easy, as is keeping the mast upright. I almost prefer if the area is not flat but with slight tilt so the mast isn't fully vertical, but tipped back a bit relative to the horizontal.

@Champlaner: with a bit of practice I've gotten quite good at hitting my target (pin of my mast jack). If I miss, I bend down and take a peek to see which direction to correct. As long as the mast is that far down, it's not going to fall as easily and I don't need to be in the perfect stance or have my arms in the most advantageous position for controlling it, so I can take a quick look below. However, some "cup" like targeting guide would take the guess work out.

The write-up also includes notes on a tripod. If you are short or have shoulder problems, this lets you control a mast. Works for hinged masts, or keel-stepped masts with hinged sleeve. I prefer keeping up my strength as I can save a few minutes by not using the tripod, but it otherwise works as intended and I keep it around "in case".

Good luck!



Thank you. This is a great idea. I was planning just fastening a wood block in front of the hole that would be V shaped around front of the hole to help hold the mast in place as I lifted and stepped it up. this just a bit more work but looks to make it much safer and easier to do. I will post picture as soon as I have it done.
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:26 am

Great. Glad you found this useful. You'll be happy to know that a keel-stepped mast actually sails a tad better than a deck-stepped one -- and by the time your skill is where you can tell the difference you'll be really glad.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby Champlaner » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:04 am

GreenLake, thanks for the clarifications and pictures! That hinged guide is very nicely designed and built. Don't think I could pull off the thicker metal work at home but maybe hdpe could be used in place of aluminum for the base plate. The nice shape of the sheet metal sleeve is probably way better than a round pvc tube. I am definitely interested in building one.

Some people have trouble even with the hinged tabernacle mast (deck stepped), so I'm surprised that you can lift yours from the center of the cockpit with about 19 feet of mast behind you! Also, from your description, I'm thinking you aren't using the pin in the hinge sleeve. If not, I guess the aluminum reinforcement of the partners negates any chewing of gelcoat/glass that the mast bottom might otherwise inflict on the partners while pivoting (?).

As for my guide tube inside the cuddy, I was happy with it but still worried. I don't want it to be so tight that the deck can't flex. That's why I suggested the flexible pvc couplings on one or both ends of the tube to Joe. They don't cost much at the box stores and one could even be cut in half to make both ends. I have long arms but sneaking a peek into the cuddy from up there while still holding on wasn't something I was even considering. Mostly out of concern for the partners getting stressed if the mast leans over since I have no reinforcement plate. In the past, I've had bystanders look inside and ask them which way I need to go but we would often confuse each other as to whether the top or bottom of the mast needs to go forward left or.... But having the mast through to the keel is already 99% of the battle. And with the extra security of your hinge, my guide tube could be skipped for sure. I did buy a large plastic funnel for $8 and tried to cut it to press fit over the mast step, but cutting it correctly was too problematic. Though the 3" tube fits so well that a short piece could be glued to a roughly cut funnel with probable sucess. When epoxying hdpe, don't forget to flame treat after sanding and cleaning.

Thanks again GL and good luck Joe on the project!! I agree about the better boat handling/performance with a one piece mast. I inherited a boat that was obviously raced and fine tuned in several ways, so I'm reluctant to change much.
'77 DSII #8420
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:15 pm

@Champlaner: I wouldn't worry about the metal. Obviously, anything stiff and strong enough could be substituted, perhaps a disk made from fiberglass (you can purchase sheets of fiberglass or lay up you own). On the other hand, cutting aluminum is not that hard.

You are right, the sleeve fits tightly enough so that there is some friction if the mast isn't aligned. That means the sleeve must line up perfectly with the partners in the vertical position. I found that out, when I rebuilt the device (by that time it must have seen decades of use). But the advantage of that tightness is that the mast won't slide in it during the initial lift, obviating the need to use any pins. Later, the mast foot slides against the opening - I don't see any damage. (The foot on mine is a totally flat, because the mast step is a mast jack, so the mast foot is the female end).

Many people are building frames that tie the cuddy opening to the floor; I'm not sure that a rigid connection is to be avoided. However, if I were to design a guide, it would just be a small conical cup. The partners on my boat are tight enough that the mast does not descend in just any angle: at worst, it comes down next to the mast jack, instead of on it. Most of the time I land on the mast jack on first try and need to center it a bit for the pin to engage. Often, not even that. Getting better with experience, I think.

About the initial lift. It's a combination of technique and strength. I do notice that it gets easier at the end of the season, but the main thing I focus on is to carefully line myself up behind the push and avoid any asymmetric loads or twisting movements. Slow and steady.
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby aigroup » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:48 pm

thinking about how to create a rig for singlehanded stepping my mast.
exposing my lack of knowledge here, but generally are you stepping the mast on the trailer and launching , or doing this wet?
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby GreenLake » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:43 am

On the hard. With the boat on the trailer. I'd think that'd be the way practically everybody does it.
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby Champlaner » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:47 pm

GL, yes I'll be able to cut aluminum. I found 1/4" 5052 disks in 8" diameter for $27 delivered on Amazon. At first I thought the hole dimension/shape I need to cut was critical, but now I realize that the hinge and sleeve do the majority of the alignment.

For the sleeve it looks like you used about 1/8" thick. Found a 12" x 18" piece of 5052 on ebay for about $23 with shipping. I hope I can bend that, but if I need a shop to help that's fine.

For the hinge I'm probably going to use a heavy duty galvanized "T-hinge" made for gates and barn doors. The strap end will negate the need for the T-strap. Might throw a little spray primer/paint on the various parts to avoid/delay galvanic corrosion.

I might drill the 4 bolt holes in the plate, then only drill one through the cuddy roof and bolt it so it can pivot for alignment testing. (Good trick for ski bindings when you don't have the mounting jig.) For the test, I could have a helper tell me if the plate moved or maybe just gorilla tape it.
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby GreenLake » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:15 pm

The sleeve is more like 1/16th. It's an odd piece that the PO found somewhere and re-purposed, because it's not solid but has these little slots. I'm sure you'll be able to bend even 1/8th into shape, so that should work fine. The fit you are going for is "snug, but not tight". Too tight and it will bind, too loose and the mast foot will not wedge itself in there during the first stage of the lift.

When I rebuilt the hinge, I couldn't find that style hinge with a bolt pattern that matched the one I took off. You seem to be on the right track there.

For alignment. If you know how to step the mast w/o a hinge, slide the sleeve and disk onto the mast, secure them with tape, and then step the mast. You can then have the mast provide the alignment. For the disk, you can drill or mark the holes holding it to the deck and for the sleeve, you can mark where it will need to go. Make sure the sleeve sits flat on the disk, you don't want it to be able to assume any angle when you lower the mast.

For the disk, I would aim for the inner opening to roughly match the mast profile, if you can. If you align with the mast, then you can go fairly tight w/o risk of interfering with lowering/raising the mast through the deck.

My boat came with a short bit of mast section that is used as mast support. I'm willing to bet that the PO used that one, instead of the mast, for alignment. But not everyone has a piece like that. You could, of course, always dummy up a piece from a length of lumber, by planing/sanding, if you know how to work accurately. Same piece might be niece as a template to bend the sleeve.
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Re: mast stepping help

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:54 am

Here's a rare side view of the sleeve, when not deployed:

2744


Side view of the mast sleeve when not in use during transport: Note the aluminum piece acting as a jib sheet guide, keeping the sheet from wedging itself below. I bent a strip of aluminum that was a bit taller than the gap so it rests against the disk. At each end, I made a small cut and created a tab that I bent. There's a hole in each and they are bolted to the disk. (Could have just as well glued them).

Anyway, I reused one of the bolts for the fairleads, it now does double duty.

Also note the bail for vang (resting on a strip of electrical tape to protect the gel coat).

Finally, the yellow line is part of jib sheet tensioner (the floating block with hook is partially obscured by the fairlead). I used an existing fairlead. If doing it again, would place fairlead closer to mast so tensioner doesn't pull halyard away from the mast. Doesn't impact its primary function, but presents another place the jib can hang up in very light winds.
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