Knot Identification

Moderator: GreenLake

Knot Identification

Postby RobH912 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:38 pm

The line for the traveler system on my boat has an interesting knot completing the loop and providing a tail for adjustment.

Looking to replace the line, have not been able to identify the knot, nor so far able to replicate it.

Has a couple of twists and the knot either ends or starts with two half hitches. Interesting to me on how it is tied.

Could replace the knot with a bowline knot, but what I have is an interesting knot.

Any thoughts on ID?

Thanks!
Attachments
IMG_4119.jpg
IMG_4119.jpg (149.89 KiB) Viewed 7735 times
IMG_4120.jpg
IMG_4120.jpg (150.43 KiB) Viewed 7735 times
IMG_1776.jpg
IMG_1776.jpg (104.14 KiB) Viewed 7735 times
Rob


DS1 #2444
Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
RobH912
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Re: Knot Identification

Postby tomodda » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:11 pm

Huh... seems to me as if someone tied an overhand knot into the bight on the right hand side (slightly pinker line in your photos) then popped the end of the rope thru the loop and tied it off with a clove hitch. I can't imagine that having a specific name, but I could very well be wrong. And I have no idea where I put my Ashley's, but if this is a real knot, then it'll be in the ABOK in the chapter on hitch knots.
tomodda
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: Knot Identification

Postby tomodda » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:45 pm

Correction, it's a slip knot in the bight.
tomodda
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: Knot Identification

Postby RobH912 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:55 am

Tom - thanks for the thoughts on the knot. Knot did not look like anything I have ever seen before.

I was not aware that there was a book of knot's...The Ashley Book of Knots, here is a link for others to Amazon...https://www.amazon.com/Ashley-Book-Knot ... 180&sr=8-1

For the time being I am going to use a bowline knot, easier for me to tie and make any adjustments to the length of the traveler line.

Should be able to try it out later in the week as part of my first shakedown sail in #2444

Thanks
Rob


DS1 #2444
Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
RobH912
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Re: Knot Identification

Postby tomodda » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:12 pm

Can't tell 100% from the photo, but you might have an "Adjustable Grip Hitch":

https://www.animatedknots.com/adjustable-grip-hitch-knot

As we all know, you can't easily adjust a bowline hitch without retying the whole thing. This one you can when not under tension, because you can pull it thru the slipknot part. Your knot def has a slipknot in it, so maybe it's the same.
tomodda
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: Knot Identification

Postby RobH912 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:15 pm

Not quite the " adjustable grip hitch" but when I take the two half hitch knot out, I now can see that it is indeed a slip knot. Added some additional pictures.

This slip knot however is SO TIGHT, that it never would slip / be easy to adjust. Looking for my marlin spike as I can not undo the slip knot at all.

Hear you on the bowline, not being adjustable without retying completely / not being under load, etc. but this knot is not easily adjustable either.

The length of the triangle of "new" line for the traveler is the same as what I am taking off... a good starting since from old forum post's I know that the PO rigged this traveler about 4 + years ago.

I'll see how the bowline works first, and also try the adjustable grip hitch (I think that is the knot that we used for setting up BSA tents a long time ago).

Thanks!
Attachments
IMG_4129.jpg
IMG_4129.jpg (122.95 KiB) Viewed 7700 times
IMG_4126.jpg
IMG_4126.jpg (152.75 KiB) Viewed 7700 times
IMG_4125.jpg
IMG_4125.jpg (151.95 KiB) Viewed 7700 times
Rob


DS1 #2444
Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
RobH912
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Re: Knot Identification

Postby GreenLake » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:43 pm

Rob, you have an overhand slip-knot that somebody tied a "midshipman's hitch" to. (For that part they should have used a buntline hitch - which is almost he same, except the clove hitch is inverted, so it holds better). Instead of the slip knot, use a butterfly knot - it makes a secure loop for attaching things in the middle of a line.

The idea clearly was to use knots that are the least bulky - so bowline already isn't a good replacement.

My idea for a T intersection is to connect the left and right side using a sheet bend (or double sheet bent - the one using two wraps) with a long tail forming the leg of the T.

A sheet bend with a tail can be loaded in all three directions. I use one on my traveller

2758

except I tie it with a bight, so I get a loop. Tied with a normal tail (just long) you get the configuration you have now, except that the division into lines is different.

What we don't know is where the two ends from your traveler are tied. Do they both tie into the same block? What if the block were to attach into the loop of a butterfly knot and you were to use the sheet bend to attach them to each other at the T with the tail going off to the cleat?
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Knot Identification

Postby GreenLake » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:56 pm

Ashley's book is of course the classic, but there are some recent knots that are worth knowing about that didn't exist in his time, like Prusik knots and some of the ones used by climbers. (Also, some of the modern sources have information on how well knots hold in very slippery line - something that someone tying knots in traditional rope didn't have to consider).

Absolutely lovely book and fun to spelunk around in with an end of rope in your hand to try out.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Knot Identification

Postby RobH912 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:50 am

GL - thanks for the additional information and thoughts on traveler knot.

What we don't know is where the two ends from your traveler are tied. Do they both tie into the same block? What if the block were to attach into the loop of a butterfly knot and you were to use the sheet bend to attach them to each other at the T with the tail going off to the cleat?


Here are two pictures of the way the PO had traveler set up, which I am replicating but with new hardware and line.


IMG_1860.jpeg
IMG_1860.jpeg (89.46 KiB) Viewed 7666 times


IMG_1776.jpeg
IMG_1776.jpeg (144.58 KiB) Viewed 7666 times


You can see the knot we are talking about in the first picture leading up to a block, "tail" of line then leading to the cleat. The knot closes a loop in the traveler line. Loop runs through the two deck mounted blocks on either side of the transom, and the "top" of the loop has the block for the main sheet.

Not to get off track, but for clarification, the main sheet starts from a becket on a block at the rear of the boom, down & through the traveler pulley, back up to the aft boom block, forward to a racket block, down to swivel base cam cleat mounted on the center board housing.

Back to knots.

Yes I am going to use a butterfly loop for the block on the top of the "triangle. " https://www.animatedknots.com/alpine-bu ... -loop-knot

Not following your thoughts on a sheet bend as I don't have two ends of line. I need a knot (less bulky than a bowline (but that is the right idea) that allows me to make / close the loop for the traveler and run a long (3 foot) tail of the knot to the cleat.

Thanks!
Rob


DS1 #2444
Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
RobH912
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Re: Knot Identification

Postby RobH912 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:35 pm

GL so played around some and see how I can use a sheet bend knot on the traveler line to close the "loop."

It is a little smaller than the bowline knot I had, but by not much.

Here's a picture of the current traveler set up, butterfly loop at the top, sheet bend at the bottom.

IMG_4141.jpg
IMG_4141.jpg (124.38 KiB) Viewed 7655 times



A couple of close ups front / back of sheet bend.

IMG_4142.jpg
IMG_4142.jpg (171.79 KiB) Viewed 7655 times


IMG_4143.jpg
IMG_4143.jpg (138.69 KiB) Viewed 7655 times





I am using 7mm Bzzz line which I had originally bought a sheet, for the traveler line. It is very soft and flexible... will the sheet bend knot stay tight / tied? Seemed like the bowline was loosening up some when not under load.

Thanks again!
Rob


DS1 #2444
Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
RobH912
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Re: Knot Identification

Postby tomodda » Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:48 pm

I LOVE Bzzzz line. It's hell to splice, but for everything else, just wonderful. Nearly no stretch and soft to the hand, yet goes thru blocks with no problem. Strong as can be. I use it for my 20:1 vang and my mains'l outhaul. Anywhere I need simple + strong.

Looking good on the traveler! I need to upgrade mine, may steal your ideas :)

Tom
tomodda
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: Knot Identification

Postby GreenLake » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:38 pm

RobH912 wrote:Not following your thoughts on a sheet bend as I don't have two ends of line. I need a knot (less bulky than a bowline (but that is the right idea) that allows me to make / close the loop for the traveler and run a long (3 foot) tail of the knot to the cleat.


Rob, your setup is exactly like mine. The traveler is a length of line with a (soon) butterfly knot at the center. The two "ends" come together near the cleat.

Different from my setup, one end has a tail that continues into the cleat.

Would work as described with a sheet bend. (You may need to have a reference for the sheet bend handy to follow this description:) The end of the line that terminates outside the cleat would be the part of the bend that looks like a U. The other end would be the one you insert into the U, wrap around and lock under itself - with a bit of tail sticking out. Now, imagine, instead of a short tail, you leave it much longer, so you have something to stick into your cleat. Done. (Except I would double the wrap on the standard sheet bend).

OK, here's a picture:
SheetBend.JPG
Standard sheet bend
SheetBend.JPG (22.2 KiB) Viewed 7648 times

The "U" is the blue part. The red part is the one with the "tail" - and you'll want to leave a really long one. You can see the "wrap" - just double it for added security, and done.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Knot Identification

Postby GreenLake » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:41 pm

Rob, just looked at your pictures again and I see that you are using a sheet bend, but you use the tail from the other end (blue in my picture). I suspect, there's a slight chance you can capsize the knot if you make that end the "tail", that's why I did it the other way around.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Knot Identification

Postby RobH912 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:21 pm

GL - ok let me look at the knot again in the morning.

I think you are saying that the tail of the knot should be coming off the other line?

Thanks
Rob


DS1 #2444
Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
RobH912
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Re: Knot Identification

Postby RobH912 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:16 pm

I LOVE Bzzzz line.


Tom - yes Bzzz line feels great In the hand.

Pretty sure you suggested the line to me for a main sheet in a post last winter.

I got the 8mm for my main sheet, looking forward to sailing with it.

Thanks!
Rob


DS1 #2444
Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
RobH912
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Next

Return to Rigging

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests