Doyle Universal Power Sail

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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby seandwyer » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:12 pm

Hi Guys,

OK--so I guess I need to really speak with Doyle, tell them about my sailing habits and the waters in which I sail and see what suggestion they make. I'm assuming one big reason for the difference in sizes you guys went with is the installation of the bowsprit and the desire to either use, or not use a furler.

OK--good to know.

And thanks, KC for straightening me out about the difference between the UPS and the APS. I read the descriptions several times and never could really figure out what the difference was. So, knowing how light the UPS is, I'm betting the APS is made of much heavier sail cloth.

Thanks.
Sean
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:42 pm

Sean,

For me getting the UPS was a way to give me more opportunities to go sailing. Here in Connecticut the sailing season is short. It's not like those lucky Florida sailors that are already sailing, or maybe never stopped sailing over the winter. The typical wind pattern around here in the summer is really light especially in August.

The UPS is a type of gennaker, sometimes referred to as a code 0 or a drifter/reacher.

I see no downside to researching and being sure that you want a UPS. The researching and figuring out how to rig it was wintertime armchair sailing for me and entertainment. The bonus was that it worked out just as I had imagined.

I would expect that the APC is lightweight spinnaker cloth, as well.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby TIM WEBB » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:53 am

Actually KC, don't be so quick to judge: I haven't been out in over a month. Conditions down here have been horrible for sailing, at least on the weekends, which is the only time I get to go. Three events I've planned on sailing in have been all but washed out for wx (the latest being the TransMonroe last weekend, where 20 boats started and 5 finished in 25/gusts to 35!).

But, it's only a week 'til the time changes, it'll start to warm up and the winds will get a bit more predictable, and I'll start getting my Friday afternoon fix in once again ... 8)
Tim Webb
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby ChrisB » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:58 am

Sean,

+1 on what KC said. When I bought my UPS, I lake-sailed my boat in the Tennessee valley. Typical winds in summer, 0-6. I needed something to catch the slightest breath of wind and move the boat. The lake was long but not paticularly wide so I wanted to be able to tack the sail (or at least gybe it). Due to personal preference I did not want roller furling so that sort of defined my sail as being hoisted inside the forestay which defined the size.

The decision on how big to go very much depends on your sailing habits, typical conditions, crew, along with how much modification you want to make to the boat. The APC from Doyle looks to be made of the same sub-one ounce nylon sailcloth. It looks to be cut more like a spinnaker making it more of an offwind sail as KC pointed out. I looked at both and decided the UPS would be useable in a wider variety of wind directions. You will have fun considering the options and how you want to rig it.

+1 on what Tim said. Florida has had great sailing weather if you own a bluewater cruising boat with 4 tons of lead in the keel. For a centerboard boat......not so great.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:08 am

Tim and Chris… You guys are crushing my fantasy. I was hoping at least somebody was sailing in the sun with perfect conditions!
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby seandwyer » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:33 pm

KC, Chris, et al,

Yeah, that's exactly why I am interested in this sail. Unless I drive up to Erie, sailing in OH is NOT the best in the summer, usually producing those 0-6 MPH winds on the small inland lakes (but the fall is absolutely brilliant!). For a guy trying to maybe get at least one of his kids interested in sailing, sitting in a "boat going nowhere" on a 90 degree day isn't the best approach. But on the other hand, I'd sure take that sort of day right about now because at least I'd be on the water! Lots of ice still lingers around here, and now, 6" of snow for this evening (coming your way once it's finished with us, KC :wink: ).

OK--so, being eternally (and award winningly) cheap, I'm sort of considering trying to make one of these. I have an old jib that came from another boat that's WAY to big for the DS. It is of course, heavier sail cloth. Is there a reason I could not trim that sail, thus re-purposing it as a UPS of sorts? If I rig my blocks for the sheets the same way and set up a whisker pole is there any reason why it wouldn't do the same thing? What is the advantage of lighter sail cloth if I pole the sail out etc? There's gotta be a reason this won't work, but I'm hoping NOT!

Chris--since I'm cheap, I would probably keep this inside my forestay, too. I think you mentioned at one point that the luff on yours measured 15'. Do you happen to know the other dimensions? You just use the jib halyard for this, right? Is there a cable running through the luff--and hank on to the forestay as a Jib?

If I have good luck with this, I might save up and try for the one KC has--THAT is mighty impressive! How hard was it to fasten that bowsprit, where'd you get it and does that make for troubles when trailering?

Thanks guys--stay warm!
Sean
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby ChrisB » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:47 pm

Sean,

A larger sail cut down would certainly work, but it would not be very serviceable in light winds. The advantage of the nylon sailcloth is that the slightest breeze will fill the sail and drive the boat. Heavier sailcloth will require more wind to overcome the weight of the cloth enough to fill it. Using a heavy sail wing and wing would require a topping lift on the whisker pole to keep the tip of the pole out of the water in light air. With the UPS, I don't need a topping lift on the pole.

Offhand, I don't know the foot and leech dimensions of my UPS but I'll measure it tonight and get back to you. There are no hanks on the sail; it is attached at the tack, head, and clew only. It has a wire luff and when you fly it, it should curl on the luff like a spinnnaker. I replaced my single jib halyard block with a double block and have a dedicated halyard for the UPS. I did this because I sail solo most of the time and going forward to remove the jib halyard from the jib and attach it to the UPS was a PIA. Now I can launch and retrieve the UPS from the cockpit.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby TIM WEBB » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:31 pm

Sorry to burst your bubble KC, but the only sailors who are sailing in perfect conditions are the sailors in sailor heaven ... :P
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:57 pm

Tim… I do a pretty good beam reach in my dreams. I don't count sheep to get back to sleep… I trim sails.

Sean… Oh boy, more snow!
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby ChrisB » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:35 am

Sean,

Here's the dimensions of my UPS.
Luff - 14'6"
Leech - 12'10"
foot - 8'11"

- Chris
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:53 am

Sean,

On the bowsprit: if you go to page 6 of this thread and scroll down you will see pictures and descriptions of my bowsprit. It is literally a snap to install and take off the bowsprit. So, it's no problem for trailering.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby seandwyer » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:30 pm

Thanks guys. Well, if that's the case (regarding weight of sail cloth) then I guess I'll just have to save up. I knew there must be a catch. Looking at the bowsprit now. Thanks for the measurements Chris--I can dream, right?
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby jdoorly » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:26 pm

I just wanted to put a fine point on this light air concept. Say the wind is 10 knots and your beating into the wind at a boat speed of 5 knots, the apparent wind (the wind pressure on the sails) is then about 15 knots. When you turn downwind the apparent wind on the sails will only be about 5 knots. Upwind the boat speed is added to the wind speed, but downwind the boat speed is subtracted from the wind speed. This is why we use very light cloth and very big spinnakers downwind. (Note: This example is my attempt to be clear, the actual physics concept uses vector math, i.e. speed and direction, however the numbers in the example are not far from reality.)
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby GreenLake » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:31 pm

Jdoorly, there's nothing amiss with your observations. The question would be, do they invalidate the design of a UPS.

The sail area for a UPS is larger than for a regular jib. That immediately puts a lower limit on the usable wind range. The range of wind speeds that a regular jib can be sailed with is considerably higher than 15kt. I've briefly sailed my DS in apparent wind speeds of over 25kts (gusts) even though, due to local conditions being the way they are, I'm unlikely to ever get serious experience of the upper limit a DS is capable of with standard sails.

To the contrary, I have had many more days with winds just above the drifting range. For those, the regular jib can be a challenge to set. Setting the jib in these conditions really amounts to using gravity to fill the sail (by heeling the boat). Waves or wakes create further difficulties. When I switched from a very soft, worn out jib to a stiff new one, I noticed that performance was up in higher winds, but low wind sailing didn't work as well. The old jib, requiring less wind force to set, would set more quickly and by reducing the time the jib was out of trim would give superior results.

I'd expect a significant improvement for low wind scenarios with a lighter cloth, but also not quite the pointing ability at higher wind speeds, because I'd expect the sail shape to be somewhat distorted by then. Also, the closer you get to a reach, the more your vector addition would reduce the effect of boat speed on apparent wind speed.

As far as spinnakers are concerned, when wind speeds increase, the boat speed may not increase as much, making the boat speed component of the apparent wind speed a bit less of a factor. I don't know what the upper wind speed range would be to sail a DS spinnaker (the one I have is old and a bit too large, so it comes down early).
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:51 pm

Greenlake,

Last year was my first experience with spinnakers of any sort. So, obviously I'm still learning.

The UPS though three-quarter ounce lightweight cloth is try radial cut with large reinforcements at the attachment points. They say that it is designed to take considerable sheet load, like 18 kn of apparent close reaching. I think that it holds shape well even under load. The determining factor is horsepower. At a certain wind speed you just don't need it… or want it. It seems to be able to sail pretty close upwind in light air, I think possibly as close as with the standard jib, because in light air you can't sail that close anyway. They say, and it seems to be the case, that up to hull speed, I can sail as fast or faster than true windspeed, upwind. As the wind picks up and the horsepower increases the movable ballast quickly becomes in short supply.

Last summer I was sailing upwind in ideal conditions. I had a crew of three and windspeed was 8-10 kn and built to 12 with no chop. I was out racing any sailboat that would engage. :-) There was a J 24 headed up the lake, so of course the challenge was on. Normally, the J 24s just walk away from me upwind, but not that day! The boat was at hull speed or possibly better and we were feathered up pretty close (the sail shaped looked good). Now when it built to 12 kn JoAnne screamed (she warned us she might) and that was it, it was time to roll up the UPS.

Sailing downwind with it when the wind picks up is pretty interesting, regarding apparent wind. Sailing a broad reach in 15 kn of true wind feels like sailing a beam reach at 6-8 kn. In the gusts you sail deeper. I had one ride last summer where it REALLY would have helped to have crew but I was single-handed. Yes, I probably should have rolled it up sooner. When I started across the lake I'd estimate it was about 12 kn and the boat was up on a plane and it felt great. By the time I was about a mile offshore I would guess it had built to 20 kn. So now it's starting to feel like it's a bit too much, exciting… but starting to feel nervous. A gust hits, so I head down to blanket the UPS so that I can roll it up and I realized just how windy it is. The boat slows down and the apparent wind goes WAY up. The UPS is flapping and snapping and making a heckuva racket… I head up a little bit, the UPS fills and the boat pops back up on a plane and things feel calmer again. I do this one more time and then head down deeper and roll up the UPS. It doesn't roll up well so it's flapping still and I go head for the lee of an island to calm down.
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