Doyle Universal Power Sail

Moderator: GreenLake

Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby seandwyer » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:07 pm

You guys understand this stuff soooooo much more than I do :?
Sean
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:27 pm

Sean,

And that's what so cool about sailing! There is always new stuff to learn. It really doesn't matter where you are on the learning curve it's all fun.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby GreenLake » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:04 pm

K.C. Walker wrote:Last year was my first experience with spinnakers of any sort. So, obviously I'm still learning.

Not sure what you are applying by "any sort" - do you consider a UPS a spinnaker, or are you referring to other experience.

BTW, I continue to appreciate your detailed write-ups. It seems it might have been the correct "upgrade" for the local "race what you brung" regatta, which can be plagued by low winds. Adding upwind power would really make a difference there. (The fun of not being bound by class rules :) ). I've since got a different boat for that, so now I need to go back over my notes to see how often I run into lighter winds when cruising. The picture there is more mixed - many of the trips to my favorite destinations have the downwind leg near sunset, with correspondingly dying winds. Some of them regularly end up being dead downwind, so proper territory for a standard spinnaker.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby GreenLake » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:11 pm

K.C. Walker wrote:And that's what so cool about sailing! There is always new stuff to learn. It really doesn't matter where you are on the learning curve it's all fun.


Precisely. That learning curve just never seems to flatten out.

And you get to try things out for yourself and then compare to what other people told you (whether in person, via a forum or in books). Sometimes the fun will be in discovering what somebody meant only after trying it a couple of times (because it seemed incomprehensible before you had the experience of it). Other times, you might come up with your own take on things - sailing has so many areas where there isn't a single "standard" answer. Even people at the top of the game seem to be competitive by pursuing different strategies that apparently are very personal (while agreeing on much else).

So, here's to more!
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:00 pm

Greenlake,

I think yes, on the question of is it a spinnaker, of sorts. It's derived from the code 0 racing spinnakers, obviously different boats than one design boats. I guess it's more accurate to call it a gennaker, though. It's really a hybrid between a Genoa and an asymmetric spinnaker (which is also often called a gennaker). North Sails Europe has a good promotional YouTube for their code 1 which is a very similar sail. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHh0ySnu7RQ

I'm glad to have you say that you still enjoy the descriptions. Sometimes, I hope that I'm not overselling the sail. I've been fascinated with the idea of an easy to handle asymmetric ever since the guy from Intensity Sails posted on the forum here asking if there was any interest in them making one. I corresponded with him a little bit after that but he felt there was no real interest here. When Chris and Jay posted about their experience with the UPS, I'm afraid I was hooked.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby GreenLake » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:30 am

K.C.,

reading the descriptions it seems to me that the UPS really addresses an issue with the DS in low winds, which is the result of its rather high hull weight compared to some other dinghy designs. That weight has some quite definite advantages, such as the fact that even heavy sailors can climb all over the boat without capsizing it. For racing (beer can or otherwise) it may be feasible to switch to something less stable, but for taking out the family or extended cruising, it's more useful to have that stability. Hence, if you have lots of low wind scenarios, the UPS seems to be a good solution, and the three of you have provided some nice scenarios to follow.

The reason I'm still sitting on the fence is mainly a question of budget and priorities, more complicated for having bought a second boat...

However, one thing that I've learned since is that the DS is the better boat for the winter regattas around here (also not using class rules) and that gives added incentive to figuring out how to fit one of those sails into my plans :)
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby jdoorly » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:02 am

In my opinion the Doyle UPS is not a spinnaker because it is not a downwind sail; it is a drifter/reacher. However, racing rules and measurement commitees have ruled that it is indeed a spinnaker. I can only conjecture that it has something to do with the lack of hanks, though the old drifter-reachers didn't have hanks and weren't spinnakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinnaker has a fairly thorough overview. Here is the gist:

Code 0 The code 0 asymmetric is a tight reaching sail, the most upwind capable of the asymmetrics. The luff is as straight as possible, and the sail is flatter than other spinnakers. Due to the flatness of the code 0, it is usually made with a wire luff for strength, and of a heavier, less stretchy fabric than normal for a spinnaker. Due to the tight luff and flat cut, the code 0 can be fitted for roller furling.
Code 1 The code 1 is a light air reaching sail, where the apparent wind angles at low speeds has a significant effect to create angles of less than 90 degrees.
Code 2 The code 2 is a medium air running sail, used for apparent wind angles over 90 degrees.
Code 3 The code 3 is a medium air reaching sail, used for apparent wind angles near 90 degrees.
Code 4 The code 4 is a heavy air running sail, used in the heaviest winds normally expected.
Code 5 The code 5 is a heavy air reaching sail, used in the heaviest winds normally expected.
Code 6 The code 6 is a storm sail, for running in storm conditions.
DS2 #6408 "Desperado"
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:18 am

Greenlake,

I sympathize with you regarding the second boat for racing, I think a Daysailer fleet around here would be pretty unlikely. I've done some Wednesday night beer can races here in Stonington Harbor. The rules are pretty loose, mostly. Actually, I think the rules run on a sliding scale. The better you are, the more the rules apply to you. Though, one of the rules that seem to apply to everyone is…no spinnakers. Because it's run by the small boat association, it's limited to 20 feet and under. The races are roughly divided by length for the starting groups. That puts the Daysailer at a serious disadvantage because it's grouped with Highlanders and catamarans (anything above 15 feet). The JY15's get their own start and they definitely pay attention to the rules! Sunfish's don't get their own start but there are enough of them to make it interesting, so… I've been watching craigslist.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:57 pm

Just because there seems to be a fair amount of interest in the UPS sail I thought I would add an update with some pictures. During the New England Narragansett Bay meet up, Rhodysail got a few pictures of us sailing with the UPS, my friend Mark at the helm. The air had gone really light and we had gotten separated from the group. They were about a mile upwind of us when I decided to deploy the UPS. It doesn't take too long to install the bowsprit and hoist the sail. With winds looking kind of dicey's for sailing with the standard suit of sails, we were moving along at 4.7 kn with the UPS up.

If you look at the texture on the water you can see that it's pretty shiny but we're still moving along nicely. These pictures are as we are just entering the channel between two islands. Rhodysail is just heading into the beach to meet up with the "chase boat" with the barbecue grill, table, and food. That's when he got the picture of us sailing past.

It's still pretty relaxing sailing, as you can see. Coming up from behind we are both sitting in. I am actually sitting in all the way on the thwart.


Image
IMG_20130615_131639_086.jpg by Kim Walker, on Flickr

Image
IMG_20130615_131645_798.jpg by Kim Walker, on Flickr

Image
IMG_20130615_132455_525.jpg by Kim Walker, on Flickr
Last edited by K.C. Walker on Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:34 am

The middle one should be entitled "where does he hide his motor?". Nice.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby Salty Dog » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:51 pm

KC I think that bow sprit you designed teeters on genius for its effectivness and simplicity.

just saying


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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:27 pm

Thanks SD! My hat size is now teetering on the next size up. :-)
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby Alan » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:34 pm

Got the UPS rigged for real today, with the bowsprit installed. Just in case anyone was wondering, the most excellent Ronstan endless line furler mentioned earlier in this thread works very well when it's right side up, and not at all when it's upside down (it won't spin at all). You know, just in case anyone was wondering. :)
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby Alan » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:01 pm

UPS rigged (no sheets yet).jpg
UPS rigged (no sheets yet).jpg (175.8 KiB) Viewed 12986 times


And here it is (the sheets aren't rigged yet). I may have placed the hound too high on the mast, but that will let me fiddle with the vertical position of the sail until I figure out what works.

Now all I have to do is figure out where to put the furler line.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:40 pm

Alan,

It's looking good!

I too had to scratch my head figuring out where I wanted the furler line for the UPS. I've been using the jib halyard cleat on the top of the cuddy cabin. This seems to work fine because I'm not using the cleat for the jib at the same time as I'm using the UPS. It doesn't seem to take any more than a good rap around the cleat to hold the furler line tight enough for it to keep from unfurling.
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