Doyle Universal Power Sail

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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby Alan » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:00 pm

Thanks, K.C. That's a really good idea. I've been pretty much baffled by the problem.

And the bowsprit...

bowsprit installed.jpg
bowsprit installed.jpg (239.03 KiB) Viewed 8537 times


...and the bobstay, which is made up of two turnbuckles and two long D shackles.

bobstay.jpg
bobstay.jpg (223.75 KiB) Viewed 8537 times


Gonna have to to do something about the winch stand - maybe move it forward on the trailer tongue.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby TIM WEBB » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:49 pm

Nice setup!

Can't tell from the pix: what keeps the sprit from swaying side to side?
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby Alan » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:26 am

Tim,

Thanks. I'm a hopeless sucker for retro-looking hardware.

The bowsprit tubing (7/8-inch stainless rail), is pretty stiff, and it's anchored at five points on the foredeck. Those four loops on top of the wood are rail slides. At the aft end, just behind the wood, is a rail end bracket. All five are secured through the foredeck by no. 10 screws. Underneath, there are reinforcing plates of 1/4-inch ABS. I've grabbed and tugged at the rail a few times, and it feels pretty solid. I had in mind that someone might grab it as an emergency handle, and I think it'll work for that.

The tubing itself flexes more than I'd like (if I had it to do over again, I'd use 1-inch), but I tried inserting a length of 1/2-inch metal electrical conduit, wrapped with electrical tape. The flexibility disappeared. I'm thinking of using the same conduit as a permanent inner reinforcement, but sprayed with Plastidip.

K.C., how's your bowsprit doing in that regard? My next chance to sail will be in mid-September and that will probably be it for this year, so any advice will be appreciated.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:11 am

Alan,

My bowsprit has worked as I had hoped it would. There is a bit of flex to leeward when close reaching under full load but not enough to worry me.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby TIM WEBB » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:46 pm

Alan wrote:Tim,

Thanks. I'm a hopeless sucker for retro-looking hardware.

The bowsprit tubing (7/8-inch stainless rail), is pretty stiff, and it's anchored at five points on the foredeck. Those four loops on top of the wood are rail slides. At the aft end, just behind the wood, is a rail end bracket. All five are secured through the foredeck by no. 10 screws. Underneath, there are reinforcing plates of 1/4-inch ABS. I've grabbed and tugged at the rail a few times, and it feels pretty solid. I had in mind that someone might grab it as an emergency handle, and I think it'll work for that.

The tubing itself flexes more than I'd like (if I had it to do over again, I'd use 1-inch), but I tried inserting a length of 1/2-inch metal electrical conduit, wrapped with electrical tape. The flexibility disappeared. I'm thinking of using the same conduit as a permanent inner reinforcement, but sprayed with Plastidip.

K.C., how's your bowsprit doing in that regard? My next chance to sail will be in mid-September and that will probably be it for this year, so any advice will be appreciated.


Ah, I see. Didn't realize it was through-bolted. Obviously, the bobstay/luff wire offset any up/down movement. Slick design!

Oh, BTW, I also see in your photos that you have black spars, as does The Red Witch. Haven't seen many DS's with them. Do you know if they were black originally?
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby ChrisB » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:51 am

I'd like to meet the fella who first thought black anodizing the spars on a vehicle used in direct sunshine was a good idea. I wear sailing gloves as much for prevention of second degree burns from handing the mast and boom during rigging as I do to prevent rope-burn while I'm sailing!
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby talbot » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:17 pm

Now we're getting away from sails and onto spars, but I'll let someone else decide if this strand of the thread needs to be relocated.
Anyway, I had the Black Burners on my old boat, a '79. You can paint the spars. I did that with the badly scratched and corroded gold-anodized spars on my current boat (a '73). Not sure I recommend painting -- gloves are cheaper and much, much, much, less hassle. But it's an option.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby TIM WEBB » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:24 pm

Move this thread - are you kidding?! It's like the longest running thread in the history of DS.org! :twisted:

OK, GL might disagree, and "do his magic" at any moment ...

I hear ya Chris: used to keep work gloves in the trunk of the car for that very purpose long before I got sailing gloves!

So, it seems like we might have a very short lived trend here, where O'Day shipped black spars: my '79, Talbot's old boat ('79), and ChrisB's '80?

I've considered stripping the black off my spars and re-painting, but with what? Like you say, gloves are cheaper and easier ...
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby GreenLake » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:28 pm

talbot wrote: I'll let someone else decide if this strand of the thread needs to be relocated.
I'm going to decline any invitation to do something about a thread that's running to 187 posts and counting. I believe this is the longest running thread in the entire forum (by number of posts) outstripping the nearest competitor by a wide margin. In other words, don't mess with success. :D

Incidentally, that implies to me that the UPS is one of the more interesting "upgrades" to a non-racing DS. Or perhaps the one that's generated the most focused discussion, who knows. :?
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby talbot » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:56 am

1. Back to UPS: I'm still interested in the idea of a UPS that's tackable (i.e., mounted inside the forestay on its own boltrope). Tell me again why not to do that, besides the fact that it has to be relatively small.
2. I painted my mast and boom with Interlux 2-part epoxy racing bottom paint. I used a spray on aluminum primer after sanding. The epoxy is pretty tough, wet sands to a gloss, and costs a fortune. Now I just touch up the nicks with whatever white topside paint I happen to have around. I've used Petit EasyPoxy and Rustoleum marine gloss enamel.
--Two alternate theories: first is that you are trying to reproduce the finish and longevity of the original anodizing, which means meticulous sanding, priming, and application with the highest quality materials.
--The second theory (currently in vogue at my house) is that the mast on a trailered boat is only going to be scratch free for about 30 seconds, and striving for perfection is folly. All you are trying to do is cover up whatever you didn't like. In fresh water, the paint on aluminum has little effect on durability. So do the minimum prep that will allow the paint to adhere, and put on just what you need to cover.
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby jeadstx » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:42 am

I think that whoever came up with black masts and booms lived in a cold climate without much sun. I can't imagine how hot a black mast would be in the Texas sun in the summer.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
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1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby K.C. Walker » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:31 pm

Green Lake,

I find it interesting that this thread has had traction, where other threads on asymmetric head sails or DRSs have not. The subject seems to get revisited over the years on the forum, dating back to the 90s. Most of those threads are no more than five posts. Though many sail lofts make similar sails, I think having Chris and Jay talk about using the Doyle UPS made it more concrete and less theoretical. I sure look forward to days when I can use the UPS because those are the days that are less choppy and my boat will catch and pass most other sailboats that are not flying one.

Talbot,

I think that flying the UPS on the inside of the head stay is, as you say, simply matter of size. Chris is very happy using his that way.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby ChrisB » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:39 pm

Talbot,

It is largely a matter of what your typical use for the sail will be. When I purchased mine in 2010, I was living in northern Alabama and sailing my boat on an inland lake. Typical summer winds were 8 knots or less. I intended to use my sail as a light air genoa and I indicated as much in my discussions with Doyle. I planned on using the UPS instead of the DS jib on light air days and I wanted to be able to tack it to the stemhead fitting just like the jib. These requirements yielded a sail with 71 square feet (compared to 41 on the standard DS jib). Fast forward to 2013 and now I am living on the east coast of Florida where the typical summer winds are more on the order of 15-18 knots. In these conditions the UPS is now used for apparant wind angles of 90 degrees (if I have crew for ballast) to 180 degrees. One of the things I've never liked about the DS is it tends to be a bathtub on a dead run and flying the UPS wing-and-wing with a whisker pole gives me respectable boat speed with an AWA of 180 degrees. At 71 square feet, I can still manage the UPS solo. If it were larger, it would spend more time in the sailbag. Just an FYI, when changing direction, I find it easier to gybe than tack as you don't run the risk of snagging the sail on rigging and tearing it.

Chris
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby talbot » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:34 pm

Thanks. As I mentioned in another thread in the forum, the complexity of my rigging is a cause for concern in my crew and some ridicule from other sailors. I think affixing a pole on my prow would generate a new level of amusement that I don't wish to provide.

Does anyone have any links to sailmakers other than Doyle who have built genoa/gennaker/reachers/Code-0 sails that have been used on the DS?
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Re: Doyle Universal Power Sail

Postby Alan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:51 am

Talbot, re your question:

"Back to UPS: I'm still interested in the idea of a UPS that's tackable (i.e., mounted inside the forestay on its own boltrope). Tell me again why not to do that, besides the fact that it has to be relatively small."

In your case, probably no reason not to. I almost went with an inside-the-foretriangle setup, but in the end went K.C.'s route (outside the foretriangle, bowsprit, Ronstan endless-line furler) for a few reasons:

Safety. If you suddenly find yourself in over your head (figuratively, with literally in the immediate future), you can furl the UPS in a couple of seconds.

Convenience. You can furl the UPS and have it out of the way when it's time to raise the jib.

Ease of use. I've been practicing tacking with the boat on the trailer and the UPS raised. The Ronstan endless-line furler is delightfully easy to use. Three tugs and the sail is furled. Pull on the lazy sheet, and you've tacked.

Specific to my situation, I'll be sailing in the early morning, with very low wind speeds, so the bigger sail is probably essential. I don't really care if the boat goes all of two knots; at my skill level, that's probably a good thing.
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