Second reef point added - sailmaker recommendation

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Second reef point added - sailmaker recommendation

Postby ChrisB » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:57 am

My Intensity mainsail came with a single reef point below the first batten. Since I do most of my sailing solo and since I plan to sail the Florida 120 in May, I wanted a second reef point higher up. I took the sail to a local loft, South Sails in Indian Harbor Beach, Fl. I just picked up the sail yesterday and while I have not put it up yet, the work looks very good. $95 including tax and he guarantees the work for as long as I own the sail. I'll post again after I've had a chance to use the sail.
Chris B.
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Postby jeadstx » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:58 pm

I have two sets of reef points in my main sail. Last year on the Texas 200 I had two reefs in the whole 200 miles. I have jiffy reef set up on the boom for both sets. I'll be sailing the Texas 200 again this year.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Postby TIM WEBB » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:56 am

I'm also adding a 2nd set of reef points for the FL 120.

I put in the 1st set myself (Jiffy Reef kit from Sailrite), as I have access to the sewing machines, grommet setting tools, etc., at work.

The only change I made to their system is I use a reef hook at the tack instead of the second reef line.

The 1st reef point is just below the 1st batten, per the Sailrite instructions, and as you describe. Can you do me a favor and measure (up from the foot) how far up your sailmaker installed your 2nd set? I've already received the sailcloth triangles, etc., from Sailrite to do the job, just mulling over how far above the 1st set to put the 2nd set, and it would be easier just to work off of how far it is above the foot ...

Also, and jeadstx, this speaks to your post, I intend to use the same leech/clew reef line for both sets. The guy at Sailrite says that this should work fine, but you say you have jiffy reef set up on the boom for both sets? Are you using a reef hook at the tack? Are you using 2 different bullet blocks/reef lines at the clew? I've seen separate sytems on bigger boats, but it seems to me that one line/bullet block would work for both reef points on the DS?

No matter what, I won't have time to install the second set before the Trans-Monroe this Sat - hope I don't need it! 8)
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Postby jeadstx » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:49 pm

TIM WEBB,

I'm not using a reefing hook, honestly I didn't know about them since I had never reefed sails with reef points before the 2010 Texas 200. In the 2010 Tx200 I didn't even have the jiffy reef set up, just secured the reef points to the boom. Jiffy reef was set up for the 2011 Tx200.

I have two complete sets of lines for each set of reef points, two cheek blocks on each side of the boom. I run the line (1/4") from an eye strap on one side of the aft part of the boom up thru the aft reef point, down to a cheek block, then to a cheek block on the forward part of the boom (same side), then up thru the reef point nearest to the luff of the sail down to a block at the base of the mast and then to a cleat. Each set has cheek block setup on opposite sides of the boom and use a different color line. I tie the reef points in between the two end points separately to the boom.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Postby TIM WEBB » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:49 pm

Well, I'm going to try it using the single setup for both, and if it doesn't work, I'll add the second setup.

Any chance I could get you to measure how far up from the foot the second set is on your sail? T. I. A. ...
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Postby jeadstx » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:57 pm

I'll try to remember to measure it this weekend. I had a sail maker put in my reef points. I know that the second set is about midway between the two lower battens. If you get on the Texas 200 site http://www.texas200.com/ and check under the photos section for 2010 and 2011 you can find some pictures of my boat reefed on the second set. We sailed the entire week with two reefs in.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Postby ChrisB » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:58 pm

Tim,

I will measure my second reef point this weekend and post it Monday. Unfortunately I live in the stone age and don't have home internet at the moment (collective gasp!).
Chris B.
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Postby TIM WEBB » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:49 pm

Thanks guys!

Yeah, I was pretty much figuring midway between the lower two battens. The first reef is right below the lowest batten, 36" above the foot, and 36" above that would put it between the two. That would be about a 50%-60% reduction in sail area (by my rudimentary calculations), and an almost complete elimination of the "belly" of the sail, which I would think would be more than adequate for all but the nastiest conditions ... ?

Questions: when you set the second reef, do you need to remove the lowest batten? And also, when using the second reef, about how much do you raise the centerboard? I bring it about a third of the way up for the first reef, but not sure how much more is needed for the second ... ?

Oh, BTW Chris, I've only had home internet for about 2 years - before that I had to do all this online stuff at work after hours! So, I feel yer pain ... ;-P
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Postby TIM WEBB » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:56 pm

Well, Friday night I went ahead and added the second set of reef points, 36" above the first, 72" above the foot, because the forecast was for it to be howling Sat at the Trans-Monroe. Sure glad I did, too, because the forecast was wrong: it wasn't howling, it was *screaming* windy! The commitee boat reported gusts in excess of 30 kts ...

Sounds like they're getting hammered on the Everglades Challenge, too, with winds more like 40!

Anyway, had the second reef in the whole time (oh, and BTW, the single reef line did work fine for the 2nd reef), and still had to retire about 2/3rds of the way through. Just couldn't control the boat any longer on the long 2nd upwind leg. Had a ton of water in the boat, and just wasn't making any progress, so I stopped, dropped sails and anchor, and pulled out the bilge pump. Got the boat dry, and realized I was dragging the anchor, quickly headed for the lee shore, so I radioed for a tow. Not fun.

So, I guess for the FL 120 I need to think about a smaller jib or something, because it could be just as windy at that event, too ...
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Postby ChrisB » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:00 am

I guess giving you the location of my second reef point is moot but you put your second reef a about a half a foot higher than mine.

For the FL120, keep in mind the DS will sail rather well under reefed mainsail alone. Retract the CB partway to move the center of lateral resistance aft. However, there is no way a 600 pound boat is going to go upwind into the chop generated by a 25 -30 mph wind and make significant progress over the bottom. I have already discussed with my crew for the 120 that if we are facing a long upwind leg into 25 mph+ winds, we are going to consider retiring from the challenge and spending an extra day at anchor wherever we happen to be camped.
Chris B.
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Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:34 am

Yeah, I just figured I'd better go ahead and do it Fri night, after looking at the wind forecast for Sat. Glad it's at least in the ballpark of where your sailmaker put yours ...

I have tried sailing under main/reefed main alone, with the CB part way up, and possibly should have tried dropping the jib on Sat. However, given the rapidly deteriorating conditons we were facing, I decided the safe thing to do was to just stop. It was no time for experimenting! And, as you say, making any headway into the chop was just not gonna happen. Lake Monroe is a very shallow lake, and the waves get big really fast when the breeze picks up ...

BTW, I wasn't the only one having trouble: out of 23 boats registered, there was a San Juan 21 that decided to not even start, and two other DNFs, including a Precision 15 that capsized. There were also several boats that ran aground, as the course follows the shoreline of the lake, and the water level is very low right now. On the other hand, Bill Holstein finished the course in his Precision DS1, with crew, so maybe all I really needed was some rail meat! :wink:

I'm liking your plan for the FL 120. I'm also thinking that (wondering if?) my danforth anchor would have better holding power in the sandy bottom of the ICW than it did in the muck bottom of Lake Monroe ... ?
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Postby ChrisB » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:22 pm

My experience with Danforth anchors (on a much larger boat) is that they hold like granite in mud so I'm not sure what went wrong for you.
My hat is off to you for going out in that screamer Saturday. I would have been sipping a cold one with the skipper of the SJ21 'cause I wouldn't have started either!
Chris B.
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Postby jeadstx » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:50 pm

In the Tx200 we had winds in excess of 20knts most days. Every day the wind got a little stronger. We sailed the last half of the event with the mainsail only with a double reef. Crossing Corpus Christi Bay we were able to stay close enough to shore to reduce the size of the chop in the bays. Most of our sailing was a run with the wind coming over our starboard stern quarter. We had very little sailing upwind. Crossing Aransas Bay we had winds over 20 knts gusting to 35, with chop that was 6 to 8 feet. As I recall, most of the time we had the centerboard down most of the way, but not all the way down. A heavily loaded Day Sailer cuts thru the water fairly well. I would recommend not single handing it on a long sail like the Tx200 or the Fl120. An extra pair of hands in an emergency is always good. I tried sailing the Tx200 in 2010 alone and didn't finish the trip, mainly due to not getting good sleep at night. Exhaustion caught up with me. I was fortunate tho that in 2010 the winds on the Texas coast were unusally light (5 to 15knts). It allowed me to work out several ways to make improvements for the 2011 try. The biggest problem my DS had in 2011 was water leaking thru the centerboard trunk where the cable enters at the front.
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Postby jdoorly » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:22 pm

Hi Guys,

Just to confirm your placement of first and second reef points I went back into my notes to find my calculations for installing a second set of reef points last year. After a bit of research on reef point locations I found that the standard appeared to be: first at 20% sail area, second at 40% sail area, and third at 60% sail area, but the data set varied wildly.

My first set of points was installed at 21.1% by Intensity. Since I don't race I wanted to to go a little beyond the 40% for the second and chose 45%.

It may not be apparent till it happens but if the reef points are horizontal the boom will end up dividing the cockpit when going to weather. So, the grommet by the mast should be lower than the leech grommet. The geometry I got from Intensity and the geometry I chose is (from the top of the boom):
First mast grommet at 28", leech grommet at 34" for a 21% reduction
Second mast grommet at 64", second leech grommet at 74 for 24%
giving a total reduction of 45%

The number could be slightly off since I discarded roach and just used a triangle for the mainsail.

How does the Sailrite kit work, do you tack everything in place with seam tape and then sew it? I did mine by hand, it was a fun project.
DS2 #6408 "Desperado"
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Postby GreenLake » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:27 pm

These look like useful numbers to have. (I have only one reef, but have already kind of noticed the difference in grommet heights there, but not thought about it very much).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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