Storm jib

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Storm jib

Postby talbot » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:01 am

A couple of years ago I asked on the forum if anyone had tried rigging a storm jib for the DSII.
No one had, but now I have. I bought a new JY15 jib from Intensity, about $130. The JY15 sail is a 75% jib on the DS. I sailed alone yesterday in winds supposed to be gusting to 22 mph.

Good news: The boat was much faster and better balanced than with a reefed main alone. I could keep the boat upright without flogging or stalling.
Not-so-good news: The jib from a JY15 doesn't work like a DS jib. Jim Myers at Intensity had warned me about this. The DS jib leads are way aft and outboard compared to the JY15, so the jib foot foot pulls tight while the leech is still loose. With the sail slapped onto the boat right out of the bag, there was no way to get the telltales in sync, port/starboard or high/low. The tack angle was only marginally better than the 140 degrees I measured with my steering compass using the double-reefed main only. (Yep. 140. No closer to the wind than 70 degrees.)

Here's my tuning strategy. Let me know if anyone has another idea:
I could not find a deck layout for the JY15 anywhere, but after looking at scads of photos and scaling them to the published dimension of the boat, it looks like the JY15 jib blocks are 70" aft of the tack and 14" port and starboard on either side of the center line. My plan is to locate those two points (should be somewhere on the cuddy top), and then put an eye strap at each location. Seems like I could just clip my barber hauler blocks to the eye straps to approximate the JY15 pull angle. It will be a little more complicated, because the JY15 sheets don't climb over a cuddy. However, there's enough room along the forestay that I can bring the tack off the deck to match the cuddy height.

Any thoughts? I think it will be worth it. I love sailing in strong winds, but I don't like being afraid. The experience of sailing the boat under control in those conditions was a rush. (You know you're aging when you get a rush out of being unusually placid.)
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Re: Storm jib

Postby GreenLake » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:06 am

I don't know what you can do on a DSII with existing attachment points, but I would suggest that you jury-rig something first if at all possible. Better than committing to drill right away.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby talbot » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:02 pm

I wondered about that. Maybe I could anchor two straps on the lip of the hull with C-clamps, such that the straps cross at the approximate desired location.
Then I could clip the block to the cross point. It would let me eyeball the rig. Not sure it would be firm enough to test under way. Maybe it the point is close enough to other cuddy-top fixtures I could find some closer lashings.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby ChrisB » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:17 pm

Talbot,

I have been mulling this issue myself. I recently puchased a used 420 jib to try out as a "heavy air" jib on my DS II. I have not had the chance to use the sail yet but I expect the same issues you have experienced. What I'm thinking about is a pennent on the tack of the 420 jib to raise the sail up the forestay a bit. This will balance the "pull" from the sheet and tighten the foot and leech more equally. Granted, raising the sail moves the center of effort higher and increases the tendency to heel, but I think with the substantially reduced sail area, I'll be ok. The 420 jib is 11.6' on the luff, 10.5' on the leech, and 5.5' on the foot or about 35% less sail area than the stock DS jib. The luff dimension gives me some room to move the sail up the forestay.
Chris B.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby talbot » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:30 pm

Yeah, I was thinking I would make a jib downhaul with a couple of wraps of low stretch line between the shackle and the tack. That would let me adjust the distance until I get it figured out.

Let us know how the 420 works out. The JY15 sails with a lot of rake to its mast, so its jib is cut to go into the wind at a steep angle. It's a long, thin sail. Has about the same foot length as yours, but the luff is longer, and the sail area is 35 sq ft. (420 is 30 sq ft.) If the 420 sails with a more vertical mast, the sail might work better on the DS, and it's only a little more expensive.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby ChrisB » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:53 pm

I looked at some pictures side by side of Daysailers, JY 15's, and Club 420's. I see what you're saying about the mast rake on the JY. Never noticed that before. Also, the jib on the JY15 is cut very low on the deck whereas the DS jib is cut much higher to the clew ( I guess so it clears the cuddy).

The sail was used and in "fair" condition so I figured it was worth the gamble. If it doesn't fit well or if I destroy it in the first good blow, I'm not out a ton of money. Unfortunately, its going to be several weeks before I get a chance to take the boat out and try out the sail. Maybe I can setup the boat in the yard and dry fit the sail before I get out on the water.
Chris B.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby jeadstx » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:45 pm

I too have been interested in the possibility of a storm jib for when I sail events like the Texas 200. After reading the above posts I started lying out several jibs in CAD in relation to the DS jib using data from the Sailrite site. I found data on the 420 jib, but couldn't find data for the JY15 (not familiar with the boat). I also overlayed other O'Day small boat jibs for the Javalin (80% of DS), Ospray (71% of DS), and Widgeon (55% of DS) to see if other O'Day boats' jibs might fit better.

Talbot, could you provide me the data for the JY15 jib (Luff, Foot, & Leach)?

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Storm jib

Postby talbot » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:50 pm

The sail is out on the boat. I'll see if I can get to the lake on Wednesday.

Good idea about the other O'Day sails. One reason I went with JY 15 is that it is relatively cheap and available from Intensity.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby jeadstx » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:50 am

Just had a thought while reading the above posts that other O'Day boats' jibs might be configured similar to the DS.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Storm jib

Postby talbot » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:03 am

Went out to the boat after work and brought in the JY15 jib.
Dimensions are:
Foot = 66"
Leach = 152"
Luff = 168"

I checked my measurements against the advertised sail area (it came out just shy of the official 35 sq ft).

Because of the JY15's mast rake, I expected the angle of its seams in relation to the luff to be greater than that on the DS jib. It's not. I dug out a 40-year old DS jib from the basement, and its seam/luff angles were 28 degrees compared to 22 degrees on the JY15. The JY 15 jib, which I described as a "long, skinny sail," only appears so because of its short foot (80% of the DS). The leach and luff are about 95% and 98% of the DS dimensions, respectively.

At this point, I have absolutely no idea how the sail will work after it is re-rigged. While I was at the boat (and in between hail storms), I added an adjustable downhaul to the tack, currently set to let the sail rise to 3" above the shackle. Then I installed two swivel blocks at what I think are the locations of JY15 blocks. The sail seemed to trim OK at the dock in the passing squalls. Will see how it works this weekend.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby talbot » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:01 pm

I got out last night with the modified JY15 block configuration.
Moving the blocks made a big difference. Raising the tack did nothing, and is not necessary for the sail to clear the cuddy top. The wind was light and shifty, so the test wasn't totally realistic. However, I was able to get the windward/leeward telltales roughly parallel, and I was able to get the tack angle down. Maybe 110 (55 off the wind). Again, the wind varied from tack to tack, so my data is suspect. But it was certainly better than the 140 I experienced when I first used the jib with a reefed main.

For block placement, I used my scaling of JY15 photos, plus the rule-of-thumb from Ross (SAIL POWER, 1975) that a line from the jib block to the clew should, if extended, intersect the luff around 60-70% of the distance up from the tack. My storm-jib blocks are 70" aft of the tack, 14" port and starboard of the centerline. That puts them a little bit aft of the mast, about half way between the centerline and the edge of the cuddy. The sheets run from those leads aft to ratchets on the standard DS jib tracks and on to the cam cleats on the CB trunk.

A person would get finer adjustment by putting the leads on tracks, but I think I'm done with further modifications until I've sailed with the rig for a season. There aren't that many days each year when we would use a storm jib, so it will take a while to gain the experience. However, just having the heavy weather rig (double-reef plus 78% jib) has increased the number of days when I am likely to go out.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby talbot » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:01 am

I didn't mean to make this topic a personal blog, but this is probably the only audience in the world that might be interested.

The most recent installment of my research took place on an afternoon with NE winds of 21 mph, with gusts to 31. I figured that with a double-reefing main and a storm jib, I was ready for anything.
It turns out that I am not ready for 31 mph winds. At least not by myself, and not when the 31 mph happens in 10-mph gusts over an already-brisk breeze. The DS felt as light as a Laser, and about as stable.

On the plus side, my definition of a reasonable wind speed for single-handing has expanded. 20 mph now seems like a good ride. And knowing how much is too much is useful, too.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby GreenLake » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:37 am

The nice thing about a forum is that you can easily look up older posts. So you'll provide nice bed-time reading for many future visitors :)

When you report speeds in mph you really do mean mph and not knots? There's a 15% difference (nautical miles being longer) and at around 30mph that difference is beginning to be noticeable.

I hear you on experience increasing the range of conditions you are comfortable in handling. There are conditions that I would put a reef in in the past where I no longer do that, provided I have crew that is up to the challenge.
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Re: Storm jib

Postby K.C. Walker » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:02 am

Talbot… Blog on! As you point out, we may be the only ones interested but even if we may not go the storm jib route it is interesting to read your experiences.

I'm not sure how you're judging the wind speed. If you are going by official forecasts you may be sailing significantly different wind speeds. For the same area, wind speeds measured on land are almost always significantly less than out on the water. With the proliferation of local weather reporting stations with tracking graphs you can go back and look at what the wind speed has been for the last 24 hours in your area. The Weather Underground has all of the local reporting stations for your area, if you scroll to the bottom of the page, once you put in your local forecast ZIP Code.

I am always trying to figure out the wind speed is by judging the "sea state". I thought I was getting pretty good at looking at the water and judging wind speed. I was sailing with a friend of mine who is a good sailor and said that most people overestimate the wind speed while sailing, so I started being more conservative with my estimates. So, I was down at the Little Narragansett Bay in December walking the nature preserve. At the boat ramp there were a number of windsurfers getting some really good rides. I had commented to my friend, an avid sea kayaker, about the wind and trying to judge it's speed. We both took a guess at it and I was, again, trying to be conservative and came up with 20 kn gusting to 30. He thought I was being a bit optimistic. When we got to the parking lot, the windsurfers said, "oh no, it's blowing 30 and gusting to 45!" I went back and checked the local weather stations… and found that I was right… and so were the windsurfers… and so was my friend. It just depended on which weather station you picked, and they were all within 5 miles of where we were standing. The only stations recording the higher wind speeds where, the windward side of Fishers Island and the New London lighthouse, which sits on a rock offshore.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Storm jib

Postby GreenLake » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:23 am

A friend gave me one of those hand held wind meters. I've been using it quite often, alternating with observations of the sea state. It helps train your estimates, but I may be estimating "high" by a few knots (not 10), because the numbers that I subconsciously associate with sea state are mainly for apparent wind (going upwind). The subconscious is rather literal, so it latches onto the number on the display, not any mental correction I might have applied.

That said, we have a weather station 2-3 miles from the weekly sailing venue. It records by the minute. It measures wind speed at some significant elevation above ground, I believe something like 50'. I find that the values it records are a good match to both sea state observation as well as on the water (near water level) measurements -- except for certain wind directions, where the station seems to get blanketed by the surrounding hills, while the lake does not.

I also compare estimates with other sailors, and we tend to not be too far from each other. (With the difference that the others have decades more in experience.)

My personal conclusion is that sea state observations can be quite accurate, but they need to factor local conditions. For example, at higher wind speeds the fact that we don't sail in open water means that the waves will look smaller here than one would expect due to a lack of fetch. If you learn to judge sea state, it's much easier to pick out variations in wind speed, both in time and across your lake or body of water. Also, if you have funneling or other effects going on, then wind speeds near headlands can be significantly different from those in the more open water or on land.

Walker and Bethwaite have written extensively on wind,I keep re-reading their books and keep learning to recognize new things.
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