Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Moderator: GreenLake

Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby hnash53 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:28 am

I have a Daysailer 2 which I am comfortable sailing, but uncomfortable rigging/stepping the mast.

After reading about balance lug sails and sprit sails, unstayed masts and other sail designs, I am attracted to them because of their ease of rigging, shorter masts and simplicity.

I like the size and feel of my current boat, its stability, its performance (I've only sailed it with the mast up and usually reefed), and although a bit heavy making dock handling and other such single handed manuevers a bit more difficult, it would be nice to keep it.

But I'm wondering if given the DS2's mast position, if a different kind of sail rig can be designed for this boat and have it give decent performance. I live on the Oregon coast so wind is plentiful... sometimes too plentiful here (but that's a "good" problem to have).

I'm not a racer, I just like sailing, but am 63 years young and don't want to have to heft a 25' mast (and all the stays, spreaders tangling) every time I go sailing, etc. And now since retired, I plan on going OFTEN. So, I hope you can identify with this situation.

Ideally, an unstayed short mast with a single sail that had decent performance on my DS2 would be great. Am I dreaming???

Thanks!!
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:26 am

I know a guy who put a wishbone rig on a Holder 20, and another guy who sails a Grumman canoe with a junk rig, so anything is possible! ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby GreenLake » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:25 pm

If you have the full 25' mast, are you saying that your's is keel-stepped? (Because a deck-stepped mast would only be about 21').

There are things you can do to make raising a keel-step mast easier. Look for an older thread on the issue where I describe a hinged mast-sleeve. Alternatively, you can construct a tripod to raise the mast and lower it into position. I build such a contraption once and it worked really well, but I would need to find a better way to attach it to the stem-head / chainplates. My method used screws and wing-nuts and proved too fiddly. Same design with quick connect pins would be quicker to mount/dismount.

You have a few years on me, but fewer than I'm willing to contemplate :)

With the hinged sleeve, I'm able to step the mast single-handed with reasonable effort. I find the key to this is to do it regularly and often, to maintain skill/strength. That way I don't overuse/overstress my back. I also carefully worked out the sequence of movements to limit strain.

If you are always overcanvassed, have a sailmaker cut you smaller main/jib. That way, you can set them with good sail shape and main/jib would be in better balance than reefed main. (Also, if your sails are not new, get new ones; as sails get older, they produce more heeling force for the same drive force).

Finally, I don't find docking or single-handing the DS a problem. I like the fact that it is a bit heavier - because it has a bit more momentum it is more forgiving wrt to timing around a tack, and in docking I can lower the sails a bit earlier and still continue under momentum.

If you launch from a trailer, work out your procedure so you don't have to muscle the boat to where you need it. I know that I kept improving my procedure over time. Experience is what allows you to keep sailing as you are getting "younger".

The one thing that requires more force than I'm happy with is moving the trailer. I may have to get one of those trailer dollies to take the weight of the tongue when maneuvering. (Trouble is, I don't have a paved surface...)

Different kinds of rigs are fun, but there's a steep learning curve in design/construction and then use. If that's your thing and you want to grow in that direction, go for it. But if you "just" want to sail better/easier/longer with the boat you already have, then I'd suggest you focus on all the ways you can optimize what you have.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby hnash53 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:23 am

Greenlake... thanks for the pep talk on my current boat. I've got my procedure for rigging the boat once at the staging area... still seems to take longer than I want.

Your idea about new reduced area sails is worth considering. I wish I could just shrink it all... mast, main, jib... down to a more manageable size.. some like a 15-17' mast and corresponding sails. I would find it much easier to have a mast about at tall as where the forestay attaches to my current stock mast.

I do like the boat itself... just the mast height and all the standing rigging and massive sail area just overwhelms me a bit.

I'm researching other kinds of rigs that might work with my DS2.

Thanks again.
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby willyhays » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:51 pm

I’ve used lug rigs a fair amount and found them to be easy to manage. Here are some resources:

http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boats-b ... -rigs.html

http://www.clcboats.com/images/pdfs/CLC ... um-Web.pdf

http://media.woodenboatstore.com/Specia ... atalog.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/Small-Boat-Rigs- ... 087742182X

A freestanding mast will go through the deck and be stepped on the keel. Because the deck is not built to handle the loads of a freestanding mast it may have to be reinforced. Same goes for the mast step.

One of the keys to success will be designing a rig that has its center of effort located at the same fore and aft position as the standard DS rig.
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby Shagbark » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:17 pm

"One of the keys to success will be designing a rig that has its center of effort located at the same fore and aft position as the standard DS rig."

- which I believe will be just forward of the cord of the centerboard.
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby Solarwinds » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:13 pm

Why don't you just put a tabernacle on your mast? Without a tabernacle you either need a gin pole or have to be able to use some sort of mast hoist.
With a tabernacle, just make sure you have the part of the mast that's down below locked with a pipe clamp wrapped in a hose so it can't pop up when you walk the mast up. The drill with a tabernacle on the mast is:
Put a support underneath the transom/trailer so the boat doesn't tip backward when you're in the cockpit.
Put a piece of foam on the transom and rest the mast on the foam.
Connect the rear pin through the mast in the tabernacle.
Connect the shrouds.
Walk the mast up and have somebody connect the forestay or walk forward and do it yourself. Be advised: Walking forward to connect the forestay is doable but it's better to get help on this, if you're alone, from a passerby.
Connect the forward pin on the tabernacle.
This boat is really very simple as to standing rigging and definitely not over-canvassed comparatively speaking.
Rerigging the boat with smaller mast/sails might be fun or it might suck. If it sucks, all the time, money and effort will be wasted and you'll have a boat
that you won't want to use. A free standing mast would need a boat designed for that and I don't think it's doable on a daysailer. Are you going to go out with a mast that has no sidestays and risk being caught in a blow?
I'm 62. Taking down the mast with a mast hoist on my Catalina 25 was a headache what with the furler, 3 shrouds on each side, the backstay, and topping lift AND something always broke. Either the connection for the steaming/anchor lights or the windex or whatever. This was with 3 guys helping.
Daysailers by comparison are simple and beautiful.
On my DS1 I dropped the mast TWICE because I didn't have the bottom part of the mast locked with a pipe clamp so it couldn't pop out as I walked the mast forward. If you do that getting the mast up should be no problem in spite of your advanced age :D
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:49 am

Solar, you are spot-on with most of your description of raising a hinged mast, with a couple of exceptions. For one thing, it is quite possible to raise a one piece, uncut, keel stepped mast alone - I did it for 5 years before installing a hinge. Just takes some planning and balance, but it's doable.

You are correct: the stub in the cuddy needs to be firmly attached to the step casting. D&R suggests drilling a hole and using one of the hinge pins, but on TRW I just used a SS self-tapper to affix it in place.

I would guess that most folks are stepping the mast with the boat on the trailer and the trailer still attached to the tow vehicle, with the winch strap still attached to the bow eye, so no worries about the boat tipping back?

Unless the hinge is pretty high on the stub, one would need some sort of mast support on the transom in order for the mast to clear the cuddy lip.

With a hinged mast, one does not need to disconnect/reconnect the shrouds when raising/lowering the mast, as one needs to do with a one piece mast.

An easier way to connect the forestay is to use the jib halyard. A simple eyebolt on the forward mast support works well. Before raising the mast, connect the jib halyard shackle to the eyebolt, then after raising the mast, simply tighten the halyard, then you are free to connect the forestay. Employing a lever on the forestay makes this even easier.

The forward pin on the hinge is not really needed or even desirable. It does nothing for a non-backstayed rig, and just adds an unnecessary step to the process.
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby jeadstx » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:24 am

Rather than designing a whole new rig for the boat, you could just find a used mast the is shorter than the original. Put a hinge on it for easy raising. Put mast tangs and spreader brackets on the shorter mast in the same places as the full length mast would have so that the stays and spreaders are interchangeable with a full length mast. The standard working jib would still work. For the main sail, find a used main that is smaller that would be the same as a reefed main. A reefed main doesn't go all the way to the top of the mast. The boat should then sail like any Day Sailer with a reefed main. The shorter mast will be easier to raise. Keeping the full length mast allows the boat to be easily converted back to original configuration should you want to sell the boat in the future. Altering the whole rig might devalue the boat a lot. Just a thought.

Attached is a picture of my boat sailing with two reefs in the main. You can see how much mast is above where the fore stay and side stays attach.

Reefed Main - 2011.jpg
Reefed Main - 2011.jpg (38.4 KiB) Viewed 10005 times


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1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby hnash53 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:19 pm

Thanks to all who have posted.

I have my mast hinged just above the deck. That certainly makes it easier to step than having to insert it through the deck to the keel. But even with the hinge, it's still a bit of chore for me to do.

I like the idea of getting a shorter mast and then getting shorter sails to fit the shorter mast. Ideally, a mast about as tall as where the shrouds/stays attach to the standard mast would be about the best route for me to go. I could cut the top off my mast to that point, and then have my sails cut down to that size.

Whadda you think about that? Sure, it renders the boat as a "non-stock" DS2 but perhaps friendlier?

Let me know your thoughts about actually cutting of the top 6-7' of my mast and shortening the sails (or buying a set already the size of a reefed mainsail).

Thanks!!
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby Shagbark » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:38 pm

I would not cut the mast. There is too much physics going on with balancing all the forces at play. Tim is correct in that by attaching the jib halyard to an eye on the trailer mast support, it will really assist in raising the mast. It pulls the mast straight up the center line while providing a mechanical advantage. Give it a try several times in the safety of your driveway and it will get easier, just takes practice. If you still find it too difficult, either look for a place to keep it in the water or search for a boat that better meets your needs.
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby hnash53 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:36 pm

Yeah... cutting the mast is sort of a last resort. Just had the boat out again for a couple hours sail in the bay here with just the main up... no reef today, fairly light wind.

I keep having the main halyard cable get out of the track right at the top of the mast after stepping it and hoisting the mainsail... so had to let it down again to clear that jam. Just another hangup that occurs with these stayed masts...not that other rigs are immune to such things.

I'll try that jib halyard thing in my driveway and see how that works.

Since I am the only one who sails this boat, it's still just a bit much even though I've smoothed out the towing rig, staging, and launching aspects some. But still, each time I end up wishing for an easier time.

The boat is great, it really is. I can walk all around the outside while on the water and it's stable. That's gonna be hard to give up switching to another kind of boat.

Can't I just put it in the dryer and shrink it up by about 25-33%? LOL....
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby talbot » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:58 am

Are you just pushing the mast up by hand? If so, I would suggest putting a temporary block above the shrouds with a sling and a carabiner. Then use an auxiliary line that attaches to the bow eye with another sling and carabiner, runs up to the mast pully, forward again to the bow 'biner, and aft to you standing in the cockpit. Just push the mast up to arm height, and then pull in the slack on your lifting line and take it up to vertical. You gain 2x mechanical advantage, and it's easy to tension the mast to a cleat while you fasten the forestay. The hoisting systems is removed by simply unclipping the two carabiners.

Some reasons I would be hesitant to subject the boat to such a radical mast-ectomy.
-- The likelihood that you would get anything like the performance of the DS is slim. I experimented with different head sails, and even that change screwed things up.
-- The cost of the modification would be much greater than having a sailmaker add reef points or cut a smaller jib. If you are in western Oregon, try Prairie Sail & Canvas in Eugene. The sailmaker there just bought a Day Sailer II, so he will know a lot about the boat.
-- The modified boat will be unsalable. Not unsailable--I mean no one will want it. What happens if you do all this work on the rig and decide you don't like it? No one looking for a Day Sailer will buy it, unless you keep the entire original rig to sell with the boat. That means your project has gotten even more expensive, because you will have to go with new spars and sails.

I agree that our 17' centerboarders can be a little small for the Oregon Coast, and there are some days when we should simply not launch. But you might even find a different boat for the cost of rerigging your present one. Not sure what that boat might be, but it would be worth talking to people at the Coos Bay YC, Yaquina Bay YC, and the Toledo Boat House.
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby Solarwinds » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:35 am

Can't think why a main halyard would jump out of the masthead sheave.
Are you sure you're rigged right?
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Re: Changing the sail rig of a DS II

Postby carl10579 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:44 am

Maybe you could get an old sail and have it cut down to a smaller size so you don't have to reef??

I'm 60 so I'm right behind you. I keep an X shaped crutch supporting the mast and I trailer with the mast in the crutch and laying across the tabernacle, tied off at the bow. I've been keeping the ropes on the mast and tied off tight until I need them. I also keep the side cables attached. When I get to the ramp all I have to do is untie the mast, slide it back in the crutch, put in a tabernacle pin and walk the mast up till the side cables are tight. If on a flat surface I tie a rope to the mast about 6' up and loop it to a bow cleat and tie it off to hold up the mast until I get the bow cable attached. On another ramp I'm driving downhill and the mast will lean forward and I don't need the rope. (When I'm ready I continue to drive downhill past the ramp then back the trailer in.) I attach the Jib and tie the sheets off tight so the jib lays on the deck. Then I attach the boom and put the sail in the boom tied off and laying on the seat but I don't put the sail in the mast until out on the water. It really isn't all that difficult. Just don't drive under power lines or tree branches.

Carl
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