Small Jib Sail

Moderator: GreenLake

Small Jib Sail

Postby Acornrunner » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:18 pm

So I'm close to pulling the trigger on a new main sail complete with reefing points. Will need to add some rigging to utilize it.

If I reef the main, what about the Jib? A roller reefing system would easily reduce the Jib size, but has any one bought a small Jib Sail dedicated to high wind conditions?

I have not tried to sail my DS2 without the Jib up. How will it handle? I took it out about ten times last fall, never thought to try it and see.

Thoughts? Looking for some wisdom, thx

"Smooth Sailing"
Lake Springfield, Springfield, IL
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Re: Small Jib Sail

Postby jalmeida51 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:54 pm

I bought a new mainsail and jib last September from Schurr Sails in Pensacola, Fl. I had 1 set of reefing points installed at 30%. Previous main had the reef points at 20% which I felt was not enough of the sail area being reduced. I had slugs installed on the luff to help me controlling the reefing of the sail. Another reason for the slugs is I keep the sail flaked on the boom. The boat is kept at a dock. I also have a topping lift which prevents the boom from dropping into the cockpit when reefing.

I did buy a smaller jib, 25% smaller which comes to 30 sq. ft. I use that jib when the wind gets to 15 anything lower than 15 I use the regular jib about 40 sq. ft.
Between the smaller jib and the 30% reef on the mainsail I can handle winds at 15 by myself. Any thing higher I'm heading back in.

If you go with the roller reefing system it will cost a lot more than a small jib. When reefed the jib won't have a good shape to it.

You need a jib to tack especially in choppy waters. I tried it a few times and ended up in irons.

Those are my thoughts not sure how wise.

John
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Jib on a Roll

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:49 pm

What makes sense for a small boat like a DS is a roller furling jib. That way you can take in your jib if you don't need / want it. I have another boat, just a tad smaller than the DS although much lighter, which has that setup. Useful when aimlessly milling about, like before the start of a race. At that time you don't need the extra power and certainly could do without having to worry about tacking the jib.

Now, as Jim writes, removing the jib will change the balance of your rig. The center of effort is now firmly behind the mast and the main tends to drive the boat up into the wind (you should be feeling that as extra weather helm requiring you to pull harder on the tiller). That should help you get started into a tack, but you won't have the jib to get you back down to close hauled on the new tack. In flat water, the DS should have enough momentum to allow you to complete the tack, but waves may change that calculation.

Fortunately, there is something you can do: you can raise the CB part way. Because it swings, the CB first goes back, the up as you "raise" it. When the CB is further aft than normal CLP (center or lateral "P" - whatever the P stands for, pressure, or profile or whatever) also moves aft. The balance of the boat is given by the relation ship between CE (center of effort) and CLP, so bringing CLP back compensates some for the move of CE due to the missing jib.

If this is a bit much at once, go read my thread "Basic Concepts and Techniques".
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Where to place reef points in the main?

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:04 pm

My sailmaker placed a single reef in the main at 18% (that's what he told me, I never double checked). When sustained winds reach about 14 (or the lulls between gusts > 14 are getting very few and far between), I like to use that reef, particularly if single handing. With crew, I've sailed that into the mid twenties (gusts, not sustained). As in that picture:

2717

When I'm using that first reef, I notice that I lose a lot of boat speed, even if there's plenty of wind; the rig just isn't as efficient as a smaller rig that size would be. Sometimes, I dislike that tradeoff, sometimes I reef early for peace of mind. Mostly when singlehanding on days when the difference in wind speed (and/or direction) between lulls and gusts seems particularly challenging. Sizing the sail area to the gusts really reduces that chance of capsize and other not favored outcomes. But is is slow. The picture above was from a (fun) race and even with three people we were fighting things to the point that it was no longer "fun" (and as we were racing against keel boats we had no chance that day, anyway).

Now, if I wanted to rig my DS for expeditions, I would be more likely to add a second reef at the standard location of 40%. That way my first reef wouldn't be as much of a compromise as 30% would be, and for heavier winds, I would have the second reef. (I've sailed an expedition event on a DS2 that had three reefs, and in other years, we might have needed the third reef). The owner had set it up so that only two reeflines were rigged, so based on the forecast you could set up either first and second or second and third.

Having a single reef at 30 tops you out at a lower wind speed than a second reef at 40%. That may be OK for daysailing in the strict sense, but might not accommodate changing conditions if you overnight a few times.

BTW, while 18% sounds like a small number, the CE also comes down more than 10% of the luff length that 1-2 foot reduction in lever arm additionally reduces the heeling moment, so you gain better than 18% on that score.

Finally, rig a good vang and you can depower your main in a gust much better.
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Re: Small Jib Sail

Postby tomodda » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:29 am

@acornrunner:

What are your winds usually like out on Lake Springfield? Are you regularly getting so much that you need reefs, etc? As GL points out, you can do a lot to control your mainsail by flattening it. Vang, Outhaul, Cunningham (or Boom Downhaul). I've even seen those referred to as "VOC", as in "when the wind gets up, VOC your main". I don't have reef points, VOC helps me 80% of the time. For the other 20%.... having the weight of an added body REALLY helps. Winds that are dicey for solo sailing are just plain fun when i have my crew along. GreenLake has suggested I add ballast (sandbags?) to extend my wind range when I don't have my trusty crew with me. Haven't tried it yet, but something to experiment with. Still, my next set of sails will have reefpoints on the main.

Personally, I HATE roller-reefing - too much complication and expense for nothing. On the other hand, John A's smaller jib means that you'd have to hank it on before you go out. If the wind changes significantly while you are out sailing, then you'd be SOL. That foredeck is way to small to be doing a sail change underway! Just my opinion, of course. So maybe you'd need roller-furling indeed. I dunno, you're on a lake, you could always put in to shore to swap sails if that's how you want to go?

As for sailing without the jib, I find that it's doable except for tacking. You can always just jib around, however I did find a trick that works, at least for me. Roll-tack the boat, just like with an Optimist or FJ, etc. Keep your body on the "new" lee (low) side of the boat as the boat swings thru the eye of the wind, and then "pump and jump" to the high side as the main comes on over. If you haven't done it before, then check some youtube videos. Supposedly, they even roll-tacked 12-meters back in the 70's and 80's! Anyway, it works for me on the DS and lets me tack relatively well without the jib. Practice makes perfect, so try it out on calmer days first. Also, if you have considerable chop on your high -winds days, then you'll have to time your tack with the waves. Start in a trough and let the next wave help knock you over onto the new tack. Bottom line, sail your DS like it's an overgrown Pram and you'll do fine!

Tom
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Re: Small Jib Sail

Postby Acornrunner » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:38 pm

tomodda wrote:@acornrunner:

What are your winds usually like out on Lake Springfield? Are you regularly getting so much that you need reefs, etc? As GL points out, you can do a lot to control your mainsail by flattening it. Vang, Outhaul, Cunningham (or Boom Downhaul).


I have a small inland lake, I am envious reading about outings on the edge of the ocean, or camping trips on the coastal waterways. Two or three hours and I have covered the lake pretty well one end to the other.

If I keep an eye on the weather, I can run for home, before I get into trouble. I have solid cell service everywhere, radar at my fingertips. So why worry about reefing? There are days I want to sail, not look at the lake.

I am truly torn as I think about my DS2. I love that it is so so very simple to rig. A boom vang is in my future, but yes that is just a little extra complexity. Outhaul I have, Cunningham I don't. Need to add some fittings to attach a downhaul to. Again pretty simple stuff, but yes more rigging.

Reefing, seems like a great idea, pretty simple to add, oh yep, more lines.

Right now I have the mainsheet, and the Jib sheets, and the outhaul, four lines. about as simple as it gets. I want all the bells and whistles, and I don't, at the same time, I can't explain it, I'm not sure I get it myself.

I do plan on adding a ratchet block for the mainsheet. I'm just mulling on the rest

"Smooth Sailing". DS2. Lake Springfield, Springfield, IL
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Re: Small Jib Sail

Postby tomodda » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:46 pm

One thing at a time is always the best way to go. Of everything mentioned, the two that will give you the biggest "bang for buck," are ratchet blocks and a decent high-purchase vang. The ratchets will allow you to hand-hold your sheets, so you can immediately react to any wind changes. The vang will allow you to control twist and flatness for the main. Think of it like having a gas pedal (sheets at hand) and a gearshift (vang). It's a whole other level of sailing. But nobody adds everything at once, so take it slowly. Enjoy!
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