NewSailaPalooza

Moderator: GreenLake

NewSailaPalooza

Postby tomodda » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:12 pm

Judging from recent posts, looks like several people are getting new sails this winter. Acornrunner, Anstigmat, me.... Anyone else? I'd love to exchange some ideas, get some feedback on plans for new sails. To get the ball rolling:

I'm ordering semi-custom sails from M&H Bartles Sailmakers up in Boothbay, ME, thanks to a suggestion from another forum-member. Why them? It's a one-man shop - Mike Bartles - and he actually makes his sails himself, inhouse, in Maine. Mike prices are reasonable ($1350 for main/jib), especially considering my requested customizations. He's been VERY responsive, both on phone and email, as we worked out what he can do and my wish-list. I've asked him specifically for a sail to help me in my lighter inland winds, but to give me two sets of reef points so I can also do some "expedition" cruising down at the Coast. I'm not racing so not wanting collision windows, etc, but I do want to stay (mostly) class legal. My new sails will be in 4oz white Defender Cloth.

What we've settled on is very close to a North Sails-type main, with a high roach, also known as a "butterknife" or "algorithmic curve." The sail carries as much roach as possible in it's top 1/3, while staying within class rules (look at page 13 of the Bylaws, Measurement Book). Example here, notice the "breaks" along the leech:

butterknife.jpg
ButterKnife
butterknife.jpg (7.76 KiB) Viewed 9052 times


Usually these are made with full battens - like in a catamaran, where I've used these types of sails. Of course, we'll have to make do with the battens that the rules allow us. FWIW, Mike is sourcing tapered battens for me - his idea - he says it'll give me a nice straight exit. We'll see, just give me nice strong batten-pockets, please.

Mike will shape a relatively full draft into the sail, using both broad-seaming (sewing it into the sail by changing the width of the seams) and adding a roach along the luff. When he first proposed that, I naturally said "huh?" but now makes sense. He'll be adding a curve to the luff to give me a fuller draft, good for low winds - when the mast is straight. When the mast bends, it'll pull out the draft - the extra cloth will go along the mast rather than billowing out into the draft. So, lighter air, more draft; heavier air I vang on, it bends the mast and we flatten the sail, as per usual. Mike assures me that my outhaul and downhaul will still work as normal, so hopefully this works. Speaking of which, I don't use a cunningham, I use a boom downhaul, gives me a cleaner mainsail foot and luff. It also means that sometimes I pull the boom below Band #2, but I'm not racing, so who cares? This is the one place where I'm getting away from class rules. but if I ever sell, then the next owner easily can get a cunningham ring or strap sewn in. Other than that, I've asked for a draft stripe 2/3 of the way up, leech telltales an inch above each batten pocket, mast slugs instead of bolt-rope, reefs at 18% and 40% (set up for slab reefing) This last based on GreenLake's suggestion - I'll have options for a little bit of sail taming (get that full upper roach out of the wind) or a LOT of taming if I'm ever "caught out" in a real storm. Anything in between, I can handle by aggressively flattening the sail and/or twisting it off.

As for the jib, we're going with standard measurement from the bylaws. There's not much overlap for our jib, so Mike is building a compatible draft curve with a straight exit to match in with the mainsail. I can then pull into position as needed with my jib car and inhaulers. I'll be using jib hanks, no roller furling. But I'm also insisting on a luff wire instead of rope, I'm very particular about a taut foresail luff - I hate scallops and I also think that cranking on the jib halyard helps me bend the mast at the hounds. Of course, don't want a vertical crease either, so I have a separate jib halyard tensioner rig and lead it to the edge of the cuddy for frequent adjustment.

Of course, all this works only if I have very accurate mast measurement. Yes, I'm going by the class-rules (page 8 of bylaws), but I'm triple-checking all measurements. Would not want a sail that I cant fully extend along mast or boom... Also, I need a fairly accurate idea of my mast bend, so I'm putting my mast on two sawhorses and hanging a 20-lb weight in the middle. Then measuring against a string pulled taut between mast head and foot. This per Mike's recommendation, including the weight. I have a tabernacle, so we're taking that into account.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. If you too are getting new sails, what's your criteria, what are you getting?
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:20 pm

Tom, looks like you are way ahead of the curve on this one. Most detailed consideration of the sail plan I've seen on this forum so far. When I bought my first replacement set, I didn't have that level of understanding, so I just went with somebody who knew the DS really well (and the variations in models) so all we had to do was to establish which model DS, which type of mast, etc.. My guy went retired so when this set of sails needs replacing I'll have to figure out something else. So, I'm following along closely, but not able, this time, to give any useful input.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby Anstigmat » Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:52 pm

Mike mentioned that you placed an order. That's great! I have yet to order my sails, but Mike did do my custom standing rigging for my new proctor mast. I picked up my DS last Wednesday and we chatted for a while.

He's making me some traditional looking sails out of cream colored material. I do not have the knowledge you seem to have about sail trim, but maybe when I finally place my order I'll have a better idea. I am just letting my finances recover from the rigging job.

He's also making me a jib bag and a boom tent. Cannot wait for the next sailing season.
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby jalmeida51 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:21 pm

I had new sails made last September by Schurr Sails up in Pensacola. I was very impressed with the quality, price. Main and jib price was $1315.00, plus sales tax and shipping. I don't race so I had the sails made to what I wanted not to class regulations.

Mainsail
5.5 Dacron crosscut
4 leech battens
3/8 slugs on luff - attached with webbing
one reef at 30%
cunningham
tell tales
sail number. insignia, bag
Velcro batten pocket closures
I had them cut the foot by 2inches short so I could come on hard with the 4 to 1 outhaul.
Loose foot
jib
5.5 oz. Dacron crosscut
wire luff
hanks on luff
tell tales
bag
vision window

I also had then make me a jib cut down by 25% = 30 sq. ft.
Between the cut down jib and 30% reef I can handle about 18 knots.
The only problem with the reduce jib area is if the wind dies on me. I will never go up on the deck to change jibs.
I am not a fan of roller reefing on a sailboat under 20 feet.

I am not a fan for sails made off shore or by large sail lofts in this country. I believe you will get a better made sail with a small independent loft in this country. These Schurr Sails are the best sails I have ever owned. I have owned a lot of sails.

Happy sailing, John
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby Fly4rfun » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:01 pm

John, I with you on that , I much rather deal with the independent merchant than the big box store if i can get what i want. what does your outhaul look like?

G.
"Sail Aweigh" 1966 DS1 #2675
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:32 am

With that small jib, you might look up what K.C Walker did with mounting a second, light-wind sail (UPS) on a small retractable sprit. He has roller-furling (not reefing) for that, so you can have a rolled away when not needed (or when tacking) and bring it out when the wind dies (or lays down a bit). I've been tempted to follow his example for years, but haven't found the courage :)
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby tomodda » Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:39 pm

For what it's worth, I've been going thru a lot of pleasant back-and-forth conversation with Mike the Sailmaker. Lots of measuring. I now put together all our notes into an "order" for him and put down a deposit. I've put my "final" instructions below, hope it's helpful to someone else ordering sails in the future. Mike was happy with these instructions and put in the order for cloth. He's sent me an invoice, and hopefully I'll have new sails in a few weeks. Anyway:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cloth: White 4-oz Defender, as Discussed

Mast Bend:

I put the mast on sawhorses at the head and at the tabernacle hinge (bottom), it's just shy of 22' long. . I hung a 20-lb weight off the FRONT of the mast - tips back, belly forward, same as if I was vanging the mast. The measurements were 1 5/8", 2 3/8", 1 5/8" at 1/4 of distance up the mast, middle, and 3/4 respectively. The greatest bow was in the middle, even moving the weight around 4 feet in either direction.

Main:

Luff - 244 inches (Note that Class rules say max 246, my mast appears to be 2" short), Lugs, please. The sail slot is 14mm Inner Diameter, 5.2mm at the opening. The boom slot is the same dimensions for the foot rope.

Foot - 120 inches, roped not slugs. Note, I measured from the Tack to 3" from the outhaul block (that's 10 feet), the class measurements want the foot to be 2" shorter (taking into account the distance from the tack to the rear face of the mast, which is 2"), because the mainsail has to measure inside of the "boom band", which is 10' from the back face of the mast. So, actual foot should be 9'10" long (118 inches)? I trust your judgement. Also, see photos. Note the class rules: All measurements shall be made point-to-point in a straight line with the sail spread smoothly, but not under tension. So you'll have to figure in stretch on the foot measurement... I think I'll only have 3" to work with for my outhaul.

Leech: As we discusses, per class rules, the max Leech Chord is 21'9", with a midchord control of 6'6", and additional rules for the battens. I've asked you for as much roach up high as possible within rules, the best way to do this appears to be with a "shoulder" or corner of the leech at the topmost batten. See Class Rules .

Sail Slot is 14mm Internal Diameter and 5.2mm at the opening. Boom slot is same.

I have a 3:1 outhaul, 20:1 vang, and a 4:1 boom downhaul (instead of Cunningham), all to flatten the sail and control draft.

Tack and Gooseneck: See photos.

2 sets of reefpoints, set up at 20% and 40% of the leech, approximately. I realize that you may have to angle the reef points due to the battens, so do what you have to, and no problem if I wind up having to raise the end of the boom when I reef. Set it up for slab reefing ,as we discussed with a loop of webbing and a low-friction ring for the two attachments at the leech, and the loop/tape arrangement that you proposed for the tack. So I can tie the new tack to the boom, no hooks needed.

Note that the headboard, if you use one, can only be 4.25 inches across.

Tell-Tale at each batten, maybe 2-3 inches above the opening, red is fine color.


Note the Class rules on BATTENS: Each mainsail shall be equipped with four battens. The battens shall divide the leech chord into five equal segments, as measured at the center of the
batten pocket, plus or minus 2 inches, and shall be perpendicular, plus or minus 10
degrees, to the leech chord, as indicated in Drawing 8.1. The top and bottom battens
shall be a maximum of 30.5 inches in length; the two center battens shall have a
maximum length of 40.5 inches. The batten pockets shall be constructed so that they
cannot accept longer battens than here stated.

I always have issues with my battens popping out. If you have some fancy method to keep them in place, then please use. Otherwise, the standard offset in the rear of the pocket is fine, hopefully a new sail behaves better!

Sail Number 37, DS Class logo (I can order it if you need, but it's just a D and and S), prefer both in Red. Please, NOT DIGITAL NUMBERS, something that looks nice, please.

Draft stripe in a good place (60%? Up to you) , prefer Red, but Blue OK.

No Windows. No Leech Line

Jib:

Luff: The Forestay, from the bottom of my halyard block (it's a little bit below the top of the forestay) to the top of the swage where the bow fitting goes is 190 inches. Since the bylaws (which I've sent you) specify that max jib luff is 15', let's go with that. Wire Luff, please. On my present jib, I have a short pennant rope (Dyneema) to keep the tack of teh jib from riding up the internal Wire Luff. Don't know how you want to handle this? You'll see the measurement in the photos I"m sending you, from stemhead opening to the top of the swage on the forestay is 2.5 inches.

Dimensions Per class Rules are fine:

Luff: 15 feet 0 inches,
Foot: 7 feet 0 inches,
Leech: 13 feet 0 inches.

I have barber inhaulers, jib tracks, and a jib halyard tensioner set up, so I can control slot, twist, draft (to some extent).

No windows. I like telltales at 1/4, 1/2, and 2/4 way up the sail, red and green, 3 inches back from the luff, but up to you. Don't know if you are adding them, if not I can put press-on telltales later. I also have a set of 3 on each side short tell-tales right behind the luff wire, for fine-control when I'm in the slot - these are "Gentry Tufts." I put them at a height where I can see them.

I'm sending you a photo with my present set-up. Again, I can just do jib telltales myself later.

No Windows, no leech line

---------

Overall, I tend to get only 8-10 knot winds around here, 12-15 on a good day. So please set the draft depths accordingly. In other words, dont cut these sails too flat, let me control them with my running rigging. The DS is best sailed flat, so when I'm sailing alone, I would like to reef around 12 knots , with my usual lazy crew, around 15. With a crew that actually will hike, we can go higher in wind range :). So that's why I'm "guesstimating" 20% and 40% for the reefs.

Link to Daysailer Measurment Rules: https://www.daysailer.org/resources/Doc ... bylaw3.pdf
Sails rules start at page 12.
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby GreenLake » Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:47 pm

That's very detailed.

Some sailmakers would have made sails for the DS before, you can find who they are from mentions on the main DSA site (or, if you are a member, from the DS Quarterly).

I had the benefit of working with an experienced sailmaker (finally out of business after decades of making sails) and so the conversation touched only on verifying what mast I had and whether it was still of factory dimensions (and also my preferred type of saling/prevailing local conditions).

While I wouldn't want to sail on a bigger boat w/o slugs, I don't miss them on the DS. Could be that this is influenced by local conditions including where and how I rig and launch, but bolt rope in the main has worked for me. Where I sail, I'd take my life in my hands without windows in the sail (at least in the jib). That's really a traffic issue.

I don't have a draft stripe. Almost wish I'd thought about asking for one. I used to have a small window in the jib to be able to view the lee telltale. That's something I miss, frankly, the sun seems to make it impossible to see "through" the sail far to often.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby tomodda » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:23 am

GL:

Thank you for your input. You know, this is the first time I've ever ordered custom sails, I feel as excited/nervous as when I bought my first house or first custom-made suit. Go figure!

And I realize the risk I am taking with M&H Bartles is that he hasn't made DaySailer sails before. He makes sails for the "fleet" over at Wooden Boat School in Brooklin, the local cruiser and racer crowd, and some of the schooners sailing out of Camden/Rockport. I appreciate that he's putting thought into my sail, so we shall see. Anyway, I'm not racing, so I don't "need" North Sails (does anyone? Don't answer). And I don't want to deal with the small sailmakers on the West Coast, I'm sure they are fantastic, but I'm on the East Coast.

I do like mast slugs, I'd put them on the foot too but not allowed in the class rules. Re: Windows, I don't have enough traffic around here to need windows, so I'm leaving them out. Again, I'm not racing, and i have right of way over the stinkpots and I can HEAR them, even if I can't immediately see them. I can see my lee telltales well enough by their shadows, maybe we just get more sun around here. Besides, I can "feel" the groove pretty well on the DS, one of the things I love about our little boats.
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby GreenLake » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:05 am

telltale visibility may depend on angle of sunlight as well (as in time of day). Not sure what the difference is, but missing the window I had on my previous set of sails.

mast slugs are great if you flake your sail (or if you need to go to an external track, perhaps because of damage). I roll, don't flake, so sail comes off fully, that's actually easier w/o slugs (no messing with mast gates and no inserting them one by one raising the sail). As I wrote, I know them from larger boats where sails are flaked on the boom and like them there.

Loose footed mains (single "slug" for the clew) work well. I'm not wedded to the bolt rope in the boom, not sure whether it adds anything. I keep my sail on the boom (i.e. rolled w/ foot still in boom). Works fine. Less work, than even inserting a slug for the clew. I have one dinghy where instead of a slug, it's a loop of rope around the boom for the clew. cheap and simple, but it's easier to put together when sails and boom are lighter, much lighter than on the DS.

There are many solutions that work well, some differences are just taste. Some stuff you see on larger boats or on smaller boats may work better at the different size scale, some stuff might work equally well on a DS.

PS: no small sailmakers on the East Coast? I've stayed away from NS; just being "cheap". Truth is, the boat is a pretty cheap hobby compared to even my reading habit, let's not mention travel. Even expensive sails wouldn't change that, as long as I look at the multi-season average. Keeping a "dedicated" towing vehicle is more expensive, for example, than anything I spend on the boat.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby jalmeida51 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:40 am

I use a loose footed mainsail and find it much easier to flatten the the 1/3 bottom of the sail. 4to1 outhaul and I can get the sail flat. Never could get my sail flat using a bolt rope in the foot. Just too much friction with a bolt rope. Plus it was a pain to slide a crisp sail down the slot in the boom. I see no advantage of a bolt rope when day sailing maybe racing? I believe the class rules require a bolt rope if you are racing.

John
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby tomodda » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:11 am

Loose-footed mainsail.... You guys have sowed the seeds of doubt in my mind.. once again! ;-) The class rules state that you have to have a fully attached foot with a boltrope. Why do I care, if I'm not racing? Well, first I MIGHT race, you never know. More importantly, I just don't want to get on a slippery slope. I know myself (HobieCat sailer at heart!) and next thing you know I'd be going for a fully-battened club headed main, running backstays, and an asym spinnaker out on a bowsprit. I made the conscious decision to let my Daysailer live more or less within what Uffa Fox intended. Of course, he's dead, it's my boat, but I just don't want to get crazy so I set myself some limits. Still gonna use a boom downhaul, though :P

As for the pros/cons of a loose-footed main considered only from the point of view of sailing efficiency... Yes, in theory you get a better flow over the bottom of your sail. There is NO advantage to a fully-attached foot, except for spreading the load along the boom rather than at a single point. On our boats, not a factor. However, I've sailed Hobies both ways - full and loose-footed, and not seen a speed difference to get excited about. I think that the bottom one foot or so of the sail really doesn't do much (too much turbulence going on from mast/boom, even if loose), so doesn't matter. As long as the sailmaker builds a nicely-shaped "shelf," we'll be OK. But I'm reconsidering, thanks to you guys.. ease of bending the sail onto the boom, ease of rolling the sail.... those are also powerful considerations, especially as I'm mostly singlehanding.

As for lugs along the luff, I hear you. I've never had issues at the "gate" as I simply raise my boom to the height of the gate and hold it there with a screw underneath (in the slot). I find it so much easier to raise the sail with slugs, less friction. Maybe I need to invest in more McLube! Anyway, I'm thinking it over.
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby GreenLake » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:19 pm

My main uses a compromise. There's a single HDPE or Nylon(?) slug that runs in the track, which takes the loads from the clew. The remainder of the foot has the boltrope (and the "shelf" above the foot) which presumably makes it class-legal, but easy to trim.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby tomodda » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:42 am

Progress! Sails are done, should ship next week. Thank you for your suggestions, I went over them with Mike, the sailmaker, especially the idea of a single slug along the foot of the main. In the end, decided that the cost/benefit wasn't there for me. After much deliberation, decided to stay with a class-legal attached foot. Nevertheless, to my eye, I wound up with a pretty radical set of sails, very much looking forward to sailing with them.

JibLoft.jpg
Jib at Loft
JibLoft.jpg (200.24 KiB) Viewed 8529 times


Here's the jib, tensioned along the luff. The luff itself is a wire, rather than rope, and the jib can slide along the wire (it's fixed at the head only). And I asked Mike to give me the draft stripe. This all so I can use my jib halyard tensioning system to move the draft around, forward for pointing, back for power and light airs. I like where he set up the draft for "neutral" (how it sits here in the loft) and I'm looking forward to playing with it out on the water. In other news, he put three "darts" along the foot to eliminate fluttering. We'll see how that goes, I'm afraid of the foot somehow "cupping" vertically, but looks OK here:

JibLoft2.jpg
Jib Foot
JibLoft2.jpg (199.95 KiB) Viewed 8529 times


I like the leather chafe guards that he's sewn in. The tack and clew rings are also hand-sewn rather than punched in. Nice touches. I like the "old school" triangular re-enforcement patches (rather than the 1/4 ovals people seem to use these days), let's see how they hold out in the long run.

The main sets rather well, I think, look at that nice leech!:

MainLoft.jpg
Main at Loft
MainLoft.jpg (155.98 KiB) Viewed 8529 times


I had asked Mike to give me as much roach up high as possible, but staying within class rules. This was his solution. I'm surprised that the "break" in the leech-line is at the second batten rather than the third (see the "butterknife" photo at the beginning of this thread), but I'll have to lay this sail out on my lawn to really see what's going on. Again, I like the draft of this sail "in neutral" and hope for a lot of control with my outhaul and main halyard. I didn't expect TWO draft stripes, but rather like it, I can use them to figure out my sail twist. The novel setup that you can't see in this photo is that the sail doesn't have clew rings at the two reef points. Instead there is a low-friction ring on a strap (on the port side of the sail, other side from these photos), a lot like the bigger cruising boats use (reef blocks). This both to cut down on friction and to simplify the rigging of the slab lines. Mike also gave me leech tensioners - although I need to ask him why two? and put extra re-enforcement on the bottom part of the leech. I have no idea how those batten pockets are supposed to work, already sent email to Mike asking. But if any of you are familiar with this type of pocket?

Anyway, I'm excited, ready to go sailing yesterday! Although I'll settle for some nice warm breezes on Sunday, we're supposed to go up to 80 degrees.
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Re: NewSailaPalooza

Postby GreenLake » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:47 pm

Draft stripes are something I'm missing on my sails and I wonder whether they would help me in discovering/fixing any bad habits in sail trim (or whether they'd just be yet another distraction). Any word on how to retrofit (and how difficult/expensive that would be?)
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