Mainsheet

Topics primarily or specifically about the DS2. Many topics are of general interest, so please use forum sections on Rigging, Sails, etc. where appropriate.

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Mainsheet

Postby Mackrelman » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:26 pm

I have a 70's Daysailer 2. I am a singlehander. My mainsheet swivel jam cleat is mounted on the aft end of the centerboardboard case and the sheet foes to a fiddleblock on the boom , standard assy. When its blowing a bit I have a hard time releasing the sheet from the cleat and holding it in my hand for long periods is problematic. I need to get the purchase on the boom farther aft. I have seen mainsheets led aft along the boom on DS 1's and connected to the transom.
Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks , Jim
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:26 am

Jim,

The difference between center boom sheeting and end-boom sheeting (with a traveler) is primarily in where the sheet pulls on the boom and in which direction. By pulling on the end, the pull opposes the load from the leech of the sail more directly, causing less stress on the boom. The DS booms are substantial, so either method works. By incorporating a triangle or traveler at the back, the direction of the pull becomes more sideways: there's less tightening of the leech for the same boom position.

Neither of these changes directly affect the purchase (or the mechanical advantage) you get from your mainsheet. Which, as I understand is your main concern. The purchase is simply defined by how much sheet is required to move the boom a certain amount. If you were to replace the existing fiddle blocks by some other configuration, you could modify the mechanical advantage independently from the remainder of the sheeting arrangement.

Next, if your setup is causing you problems holding the sheet in your hands, but not, say, lacking the power needed to allow you tighten it, then a different solution altogether might be worth thinking about: a ratchet block. Ratchet blocks resist the sheet load as long as you provide some (smaller) pull on the sheet. They make it much less tiring to hold sheets in your hand without the need to go to higher purchases. Depending on your setup, it may be difficult to retrofit a ratchet block like-for-like. You may have check around a bit as to what the options are. I use a Ronstan 55 ratchet block and I leave it on the auto position (where it turns the ratchet function off automatically if the sheet is loaded lightly, as in low wind conditions). I'm extremely happy with it and even use one each on the jib sheets.

Now, for single-handing, one other concern would be to be able to keep your sail shape flat as you let out the main when you respond to a gust. Normally, as you let go the sheet, the boom both goes out and up. The latter allows more shape in the sail and it can actually power up from that while you are trying to depower it with a wider sheeting angle. To overcome that, you'd ad or beef up your boom vang, so it's in the 12:1 to 20:1 range and use that to set the vertical angle of the boom even when going upwind (vang sheeting). Playing the sheet then changes mainly the horizontal angle and you can depower nicely. This is another one of the modifications that I would say worked well for me. I was hesitant at first, as the boat came without any vang, not even the stock 3:1, but I must say, I'm a convert now.

About the difficulty releasing the main when it's cleated. This can be due to the geometry of your cleat. I have sailed on a DS2 and hated the stock cleat. It kept cleating by itself. If that's an issue, you may need to replace it with something that allows a different angle that works for you. There's also the issue whether the sheet is released when pulling up or pulling down. You may find you prefer one over the other and if that's not what you have, go get it changed. Nothing worse than accidentally cleating your main and going over as a result.

My setup is the stock DS1 swivel which releases up, a 90 degree turn at the boom (ratchet block) and a traveler at the stern mainly copied from Phill Root's writeup. All combined with a 12:1 boom vang (6:1 purchase combined with a single 2:1 cascade).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby Mackrelman » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:34 pm

Thank you for an extremely well thought out response. I'm going to think it over before changing however I expect to go (1) step at a time - setup a traveler aft, try it out and then consider the Ronstan ratchet block. My present boom vang is homemade and underpowered so that gets replaced as a matter of course.
I presently lift the mainsheet to release it and part of the problem is that I am sitting forward to trim the hull so my angle of lift is off . Maybe installing the Ronstan and having a jam cleat nearer to where I sit? Under conditions where I need to hold the sheet the Ronstan lightens the load and in mild conditions use the jam cleat. Hmmmm.
She's on the hard right now while I give her the first paint job in 40+ years and will not be sailing for at least (3) weeks , plenty of time to think this thru, I do love this Lady.
Thanks , JW
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:11 am

For release angle, the cure is to change the angle. Some HW can be adjusted (some can be customized after the fact) some must be replaced, but a setup with the wrong release angle is a capsize waiting to happen. I'd carefully consider any hardware you own or intend to purchase from the perspective of whether you can adjust the release angle to what you need. Even if it's a one-time adjustment (shouldn't need to be something you do all the time).

One downside of a rear traveler is that it can tangle with motors or stern cleats. Keeping it under tension in a gybe is definitely advised.

Nothing gained without compromise somewhere.

Good luck!
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby jalmeida51 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:57 pm

To change the angle of the cam cleat you can buy plastic wedges from Harken. The wedges come in different angles. I had the same problem when I owned a Rhodes19 and the wedge solved the problem. I believe Ronstan also makes the wedges for their cam cleats.

John
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:41 pm

It's a bit more difficult for swivel cleats if you need to lower, not raise the angle.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby Mackrelman » Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:08 pm

Re - Mainsheet - DS2
My (3) week paint job turned into (6) weeks+ of paint , fiberglassing , minor structural repairs and also mapping out necessary projects for the future. What's not to love in these 40+ yr old hulls?
I need a bit of advice.
I am changing the existing mid boom mainsheet arrangement somewhat , there will be a traveler about 3 ft aft of the present centerboard trunk jam cleat, I've installed (2) eyebolts in the coaming just in line with the existing outboard cleats. The coaming and eyebolts are adequately reinforced they are not going anywhere. I will install an additional bail about 3 ft aft of the one on the boom now.
I definitely want to get rid of the existing cboard trunk mounted jam cleat and install something like the Ronstan 55 that you referenced however I have not figured out my plan for reeving the mainsheet.
One important consideration for me is where I am seated. I usually sit just aft of the cuddy which balances the hull nicely however when I am lazy or have another person aboard I sometimes want to move aft a few feet. I need to have good mainsheet control from both positions.
I hope the above is not too confusing and would appreciate comments and advice.
Thanks, Jim W
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:39 am

So, what I am picturing is the same as a typical end-boom traveler, just a bit further forward? The boom is 10' long, CB trunk is approx at the mid point, so 5', and you want to move 3' aft of that, so 8' from the mast. Just confirming. You mention eye bolts, are you going for a fixed line traveler tied off at either end.

The end of CB location for the mainsheet swivel gives good access whether you are single or double-handing. It's more a matter of what hardware you mount there. A CB arrangement might have a fiddle block both there and at the boom. With a traveler, you can move that purchase aft, either by using a single block w/ becket at the boom and a single block tied to the apex of the traveler, or you could use a 2 block fiddle on the boom and a single block with becket on the apex of the traveler. You get 2:1 or 3:1 purchase respectively.

At the CB you can put a single standup swivel block with cleat and on the boom above, a single ratchet block (where the sheet turns 90 degrees to go to the end of the boom).

I'm not sure what hardware is available from what sources. Some online stores have folded recently and supplies may not be as good, like for everything else.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby Mackrelman » Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:24 pm

Thanks for the response , it seems to me that you completely understand what I have done so far. I'm attaching a picture for clarification.
The crossbar under the tiller has several functions , it supports my long tiller , I use it as a holding point for "locking" the tiller when on "autopilot" instead of the line that you put me onto a year ago and when I am really lazy I put a cushion against it and stretch out on the seat like a recliner, I can still see over the bow a bit.
The eyebolts (3/8" thread)go thru the crossbar , the deck and thru (2) 1 1/2 X 2 x 12 backing blocks.
The traveler should be far enough forward to minimize fouling the outboard when it is tilted all up.
I intend the tie a line from eyebolt to eyebolt for a "test" traveler and learn from that and will not limit myself to a fixed length , one end of the traveler could go thru the eyebolt to a jam cleat, I'll be learning as I go
I appreciate any advice you have and I'm not too worried about locating blocks , I don't buy much new but
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! spend time on Craigslist[img]
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:05 am

That last foot or so of cockpit seating is where you normally don't need to / want to sit so the stern doesn't dig in and slow you down. Placing a traveler there would reduce the problems with tangling. So that's all fine. Exception would be running downwind in stronger winds, when you do want to sit aft, but not all of us tend to sail in those conditions. So both bar and traveler may well work for you as located.

I'm not sure what other info you are lacking to put this together. Perhaps, if necessary, draw your proposed setup in some detail. (If posting pictures, use a photo editor to compress the image, e.g. "medium" quality, rather than simply reducing the pixel dimensions. At 60%/medium you lose some finer detail, but less than what you lose by scaling to fewer pixels).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby Mackrelman » Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:21 pm

Thanks for your time and input. I have an initial reeving setup that I'll work out in stages , should flatten the learning curve a bit.
Sail safe , JW
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:54 pm

Looking forward to seeing a report on what yo finally set up.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby rkennedy » Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:32 pm

My original main sheet swivel block came apart yesterday, The top block went flying into the lake. I went to the D&R website and the replacement block has the cam cleat mounted so it cleats when pulling up on the line.
The original one cleated when you pulled down on it, I liked this because I could easily un-cleat it while sitting on the rail. Has anyone else replaced their orginal swivel block with this new one? And if you did replace it was it hard to get used to it un-cleating pulling the line down ? Rudy says most people do the un-cleat with their foot. I liked to un-cleat and hold the line in my hand while tacking.
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby rkennedy » Wed Aug 16, 2023 2:57 pm

My question was answered in theh How is the mainsheet attached to the CB trunk thread.
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Re: Mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:16 pm

Yeah, it always pays looking through the older posts. There's just so much useful stuff there.

PS: I could have sworn I wrote some answer to your query at the time, but perhaps it failed to submit properly, because I don't see it.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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