DS II can hold quite a bit of water in bilge, quite a bit!

[jeadstx]

The boat on the dusty road by the repair building is "apparently" being restored. We have heard from the owners.

We have been doing some Day Sailer class racing, but we also get together to just sail our boats. One guy has a place on the lake, but lives in Midland, another boat is close to the lake, another comes out of San Antonio, and I am in Dripping Springs just west of Austin. There are 3 DS IIs and 1 DS III. We know of a couple more Day Sailers around the lake, but haven't gotten in touch with them yet.

If you feel like it, come on down for the Wurstfest Regatta the 1st weekend of November. It is a lot of fun, the event is put on by Lake Canyon Yacht Club.

Getting our boats together and comparing things is always useful. I agree about using the free ramps. I launch at the marina sometimes, other times at the Army Corps ramp #17 which is nearby.

John

[talbot]

It's possible we all have had a plug failure (equipment or operator) at some point.

When it happened to me, and I started to pull out on the trailer, another sailor rushed over and begged me to stop. He said (and I have since heard the same story from others) that a boat is very fragile when the water is on the inside and none is on the outside. All the structural design is focused on resisting inward pressure, not outward pressure. Pulling a swamped boat full of water onto a trailer can result in the transom failing, sometime spectacularly. One racer told me of watching a larger boat (I think a Wavelength 24) that blew apart on a ramp after being rescued from an accident. His opinion (and he runs a small boatyard) is that the vessel was probably not repairable.

If you have a bilge full of water, the safest approach is to pull the boat a few inches at a time, just enough to get the bilge water level higher than the lake or bay. You can speed the process by using a bilge pump. You won't win any friends at the ramp on a busy weekend, but maybe you can skootch over to one side enough to let others launch. (As if it's not embarrassing enough already.)

[Lefferts43]

I am very new to DSII. I just painted it and did my first sail last week and it was great. Very different than catamarans which I've mainly sailed. This forum has been great and I've learned a lot. I was reading this post as I had questions about the water filling the tanks inside. Is that for ballast? When I switch seats to the other side of the boat you can hear air escaping and eventually stops. Is that the boat leveling itself off due to the weight transfer? What's the reason for putting pool noodles in the tanks? I was also freaked when water was coming from the cuddly into the deck but I believe that's from the cable hole issue as others have that issue. The faster I went, the more water came in. Thanks again.

[DigitalMechanic]

I have been trying to seal little leaks on my boat as well. This is definitely not a water ballast boat. It is meant to stay dry inside the hull, though in reality I think it may be a vary rare thing to find one that actually stays completely dry. Places I have checked...

1. Centerboard Trunk - Make sure that the pivot bolt (open up the inspection ports in the cockpit floor near the cuddy) rubber seals behind the washers on the bolt are good. If you need a new set, D&R Marine has them for a couple of bucks.

2. Centerboard trunk - check the grommets in the holes that the uphaul and downhaul cables go through. Some say that their boat has an opening/space between the the hole inside the cuddy and the hole on the outside of the boat. If that does not make sense, I think that some report that there were 2 pieces of fiberglass that did not completely join together in the hole where the grommet is. But the grommet is supposed to keep water from getting in between the 2 pieces of glass and allowing water into the hull. On my boat, the uphaul and downhaul holes are glassed through. However, if that is not the case for you, others have reported using a PVC pipe and nipple to minimize the hole and mitigate entry of water in that location. With that being said, I imagine if you centerboard uphaul cable hole is a strong squirter, you don't have a leak there, else it would not be going in the cuddy but into the hull. That water should drain back to the transom and allow you to purge with the bailer once you are going fast enough (pop the plug and the water will get sucked out, the close the plug back).

3. The seal on the hull drain plug - Should have a grommet on it. That is the lowest plug (screws out) on the outside of the transom. There is a plug above that that uses pressure to seal, but that would be leaking water into the sump (not hull) if there were a problem with it, and should have already noticed it by now. If you need a new transom plug with a grommet, again D&R Marne has them for a few dollars.

4. Self Bailer - This is where I found a leak. Since I have fixed it I get a lot less water in the hull after my trips out. Topic is here http://forum.daysailer.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5195. To make a long story short, the hole through the cockpit floor to the outside of bottom of the hull that the bailer passes through had become less than symmetrical. Thus the O ring on the bottom bailer piece could not make a proper seal. I ended correcting this by caulking the lip of the bailer. I also pulled the one remaining pin from the bailer (the other pin and ball had fallen out) and and sealed those holes as well. And finally, the threads in the hole that passes through the bailer are exposed to the sea. I used teflon plumbers tape to seal the threads when I put the bailer back together. We will see how the teflon tape and caulk hold up in the saltwater marine environment here on the old St. Johns River.

5. Hull deck joint - This is where the top of the boat (deck) and the bottom (hull) are sealed together. Folks have reported cracks or holes there as well that may allow water to enter the hull or cuddy.

6. The towing ring - Not sure if that is the proper name for it, but it is the thing on the front of the boat you hook the trailer winch to. The bolts that hold it on can become loose over time. To correct that you have to add an inspection port to the foredeck to gain access to the area that will let you tighten and seal those bolts.

As for the pool noodles, it is a precaution in case the boat capsizes and gets swamped with water. Or, if you are like the rest of us and have ever forgot to put a plug in before heading out, the boat could fill up with water. I did this once with the bailer, so water came directly into the boat (sump) instead of the hull, so I noticed pretty quick and pulled the boat and drained it. But if you forgot something like the transom plug, you may not notice until you do not have an opportunity to pull the boat immediately and correct anymore. In this situation, I imagine pool noodles would be your best friend, along with a hand operated bilge pump (open inspection ports in cuddy floor and pump away).

Not sure why you are hearing air escape. I have not heard that, or at least if that happens have not noticed it (I usually have music playing). When I first got the boat, I used to hear a slosh during a tack, but that was because too much water was in the boat, and I did not know any better. If air is escaping I would guess that it was coming from either one of the inspection ports (bad seal) or a crack/hole in the hull deck joint as water sloshes around on the inside?

I have only had my boat for about a year, so these are my limited experiences and what I have read from others in the past trying to find the same info you are looking for. Hopefully it gives you a starting point. I am sure others will chime in

[Lefferts43]

Oh man. I realized I didn't plug my bilge escape at the stern at the very bottom. That's supposed to be plugged in the water and unplugged when you take the boat out of the water correct?

[talbot]

Yep. If your bilge stays dry, you can just leave it in. Check the inspection ports by the CB before you take out. If it's dry, you don't need to remove (and risk losing or forgetting) the plug.

[KingsTransom]

I had my boat out last night. Probably only in the water for about three hours, but she was hard to crank onto the trailer, and when I removed the drain plug, while still on the ramp, a solid 3/4" stream ran for at least a minute. I had no bucket to measure it, nor did I time how long it ran, but it sure seemed like a lot of water. Based on fish tank experience, I would guess about 30 gallons. No one noticed any difference in how she sailed, so it was nowhere near swamped.

In the driveway today, I poured ten gallons into the floor inspection port, just aft of the cuddy door, to see if any leaks out. I tilted the trailer tongue up and down to move the water from one point to the other - tongue is a lot heavier with 20 gallons in the bow. I even sprayed water from the hose directly at the centerboard bolts. The only point I see any drips is at the bilge drain plug - about one drop every 5.5 seconds, or 1.4 seconds if I put the plug in not so tight. For three hours in the water, that should account for about 2 or 8 liters of water (half to 2 gallons). The ten gallon test dose results in water about 5" below the top of the inspection port.

I can feel the centerboard bolt washers and they don't seem to have any cracks and feel like fresh rubber, not dry and weathered. Using a mirror and flashlight, they look OK too. I think the next candidates are the holes for the CB lines, though short of a movie camera, I don't know how to confirm that, nor what to do about it if it proves to be the case. Points higher on the hull may also be the culprit, but all that I can see looks good, but that excludes the hull concealed by the bunks.

Short of wading down the ramp to the transom (not the best place to be while a boat is there), is there a better way to remove the drain plug so she can spill while towing out?

What is the purpose of the drain plug in the transom? I would think if you have that much water in the cockpit, having a hole there would be more likely to let more water in than out.

[GreenLake]

CB leaks are often those that aren't measured well with "static" testing. The reason is that the the CB moves under load and the water in the CB trunk will be under pressure beyond what's caused by immersion.

Your CB washers could be fine on land (and even more so, when the test involves higher pressure on the hull side than the CB trunk side) so I wouldn't be confident to rule them out based on what you wrote. When the CB washers were leaking on my DS, it was during the sail, not at launch. That said, mine were pretty far gone before I had to replace them - but I ended up tightening things occasionally before that.

"Pretty far gone:"

(click to enlarge)

About estimating the amount of fluid in your hull. I found this handy calculator. The result for 3/4" diameter opening submerged 5" is very roughly about 1/10 of a gallon per second, or 6 gallons per minute - assuming that the fluid level doesn't drop.

(Unlike your fish tank, the water inside the hull might be a bit more distributed (shallower), which cuts down the expected flow rate.)

If the amount of water is less than you estimated, some of the other potential leaks become viable options. Things to think about. Hopefully, these considerations will spur your search in the right direction. Good luck.

[talbot]

The entry points to the bilge are:
--The CB pivot, which you say looks OK. But as Greenlake says, visual inspection may not tell the story. For instance, the hole in the hull may be worn and irregular, and not sealing properly. A previous owner of my boat and gooped silicone in the hole, which Rudy at D&R Marine said probably interfered with the seal. I removed it and smoothed the hole with a rat-tail file. If you replace the seals, check out the hole, and try a swipe of light grease on the surfaces to ensure a seal until the washers seat.

-- The though-hull where the uphaul enters the cuddy. The putty that fills the space between trunk and hull crumbles and water splaces in from the trunk and right into the bilge. It should splash all the way into the cuddy and get your stuff wet. There are solutions for that, too, but let's just stick with the bilge. The fix is to install a new bushing, ideally one that goes all the way from cuddy to the interior of the trunk. See Roger's book.

-- The hull-deck joint, particularly at the aft corners. This probably isn't the problem in your case, because when it occurs, you see water squirting out of the joint when you pull the boat up a steep ramp. There is actually a gap at the corner that is supposed to be filled with putty. Again, the putty cracks and water can pour in between the hulls any time the boat is heeled over while sailing. My fix was to gouge out the putty, refill with Marine Tex, and then glass the whole corner in with fresh cloth and resin.

-- The inspection ports in the cockpit floor. The seals wear out, the rims crack, the screws leak. That can be a problem if the boat picks up a lot of water in the cockpit from waves or rain. I replaced my ports. Some DS II's don't have a level floor under the ports. A thin shim of fiberglass on the low side of the rim can level the installation and improve the seal.

-- Water can come in through the drain plug itself. Check the seal and screws on the fitting the plug goes into and the washer on the plug. Not a big deal to pull and replace. Get a spare plug while you are at it.

--Finally, you can get cracks in the hull from the CB hitting the font of the trunk. All the other things are relatively easy to fix. I haven't had this problem, but I understand it requires reglassing that part of the hull.

My current boat had persistent leaks, and I finally did all of the above except the bottom cracks. The boat may have had every one of those problems, or maybe just the last one I fixed. In any case, once I had taken care of the pivot, through-hull, hull joint, ports, and plug--one at a time--the bilge finally stayed dry. We wet-sail our boat, so it is actually in the water at a dock for five months a year. And it really is dust-dry in the bilge. The lesson is -- don't give up.

[GreenLake]

nice summary

[KingsTransom]

Why doesn't the auto-bailer drain the bilge? It would require either a separate bailer, or a lower ball-check to get below the bilge - down in the bailer housing under the hull since the floor of the bilge is the inside of the hull. Being below the waterline would require more speed to get more suction to drain the bilge than it does to drain the cockpit. The single bailer would also require a second ball check to keep water in the bilge from draining into the cockpit. One consequence would be that one would not know how much water was leaking into the bilge.

[GreenLake]

The autobailer is intended for the cockpit, because the cockpit takes on water under "normal" operating conditions.

The bilge is at least supposed to stay dry.

[KingsTransom]

My windsurfer has thin pliable swipes around the centerboard slot. Could something like that be installed to prevent water being dynamically forced up into the centerboard trunk? If so, who sells such a thing?

With regards to having the CB swing forward and hit the front of the CB trunk - Could this be restricted by rigging the CB downhaul line to have the pulleys meet before it reaches this point? In this way, one would run out of downhaul line before the CB had a chance to hit the trunk.

Is there an adhesive that is compatible with both rubber (EPDM) and gel-coat? If so, a bumper might prevent damage from CB over-swing.

[talbot]

KingsTransom: I believe putting baffles on the DS centerboard trunk violates class rules. Any of you racers know if that's true?

Yes, you can take a small piece of rubber, like a neoprene stopper, and use 3M 5200 to glue it into the very front of the trunk, flush with the bottom of the boat. Just keep in mind that 5200 is meant to be permanent, and if you ever need to refinish the trunk interior, that adhesive will have to be removed with a scraper and/or special solvent. I've done that, and it's not too bad, but keep the operation small.

Yes, making the uphaul just a little short is a good way of avoiding banging the front of the trunk.

The downhaul also has a role to play in preventing damage from the board. If the boat ever turtles with the board extended and the downhaul free, the CB can fall back into the trunk. Never happened to me, but I guess it can cause some expensive damage. Elsewhere on the forum, people have recommended breakaway hold-down cleats so you can always have the downhaul taut but have it release if you hit something.

[DigitalMechanic]

What is the purpose of the drain plug in the transom? I would think if you have that much water in the cockpit, having a hole there would be more likely to let more water in than out.

It is the emergency plug for when a hurricane comes and fills your boat with water on the trailer, lol