Cuddy Doors

[GreenLake]

I'd seriously doubt it.

[hectoretc]

I'd seriously doubt it.

You seriously doubt it will simply flood, or you seriously doubt they gave that scenario any thought during design?

[jeadstx]

I capsized in March of 2010 while getting ready for the Texas 200 that year. I wish I could have said it was a test capsize, but I can't. At any rate, my mast didn't sink (fortunately for me), although it did start to fill with water from many holes in it from hardware that had once been attached. The previous owner of my boat had to replace the original mast which was broken. The P.O. had replaced it with a DS1 mast, so my mast is older than my boat. In my case the boat was fairly high on it's side and water did not pour through the hatch opening. Since my port went over on the port side, my ice box lid in the seat fell open and spilled it's contents. Everything in the cuddy cabin shifted to the low side, including a 28 lb. anchor I had on board. I had no hatch covers in place, but did not loose anything out of the cuddy cabin. I was happy my camera stayed in there. I couldn't right the boat where it capsized at. I swam it close to shore where I was able to right it.

I was concerned after the capsize about the potential lose of equipment in the cuddy cabin if I had a capsize on the Texas 200 since the boat would be very full of camping gear and supplies for five days of sailing. Winds during the Texas 200 are typically high. That is why I built a horizontal hinged hatch cover that could be locked in place while sailing. The top part could be opened to access anything needed, while preventing gear lose in case of a capsize. I also put a tie down strap on the ice box cover. Inside the cuddy cabin I added attachment hardware for straps. The straps could secure cargo to prevent my load from shifting while sailing. Also, with cargo secured in place, all the weight wouldn't shift to one side in case of a capsize, thereby aiding in righting the boat. Fortunately I haven't capsized since that first time. I also sealed all the old holes in my mast and added some foam flotation inside the upper two feet of the mast. It may not completely prevent the mast from going under, but may slow it enough until I can get flotation under it. I can also tell you from experience that a DS2 looks a lot bigger than when your looking up at the bottom while bobbing in the water.

John

[hectoretc]

I can also tell you from experience that a DS2 looks a lot bigger than when your looking up at the bottom while bobbing in the water.

That's a great line!

Thanks for the great story. I defintely have it in the master plan to secure my "movables" but hadn't really thought if it in the context of the boat laying sideways. (Poseidon adventure)
I'm sure that gives whole new perspective on the word "secured".

But it does sound (at least in your case) that the cuddy bulkhead wall was high enough...wide enough... (I guess the term "high enough" is accurated when laying on it's side) that water didn't flood the cuddy? And to that end, you were able to swim the boat to shallower water so it must have had some extra margin there for small swells and wakes?

And as long as we're learning here... how did you swim it along? All hydrodynamics probably go out the window in that case, more or less pulling by the mast or a line? bow first, keel first? or didn't you stop and take notice?

Thanks again!

[jeadstx]

Just after I capsized, two teenagers (high school) came by in a boat and asked me if I needed help. One got in the water and swam over to the boat, then realized he didn't have a clue as to what to do. So I asked him just to make sure my masthead didn't go under. I tried then to get on the centerboard to right the boat. After that failed, I grabbed hold of the centerboard bottom edge and started swimming towards shore, about 100 yards away. Another power boat came by, but they really were no help. They did retreive most of the stuff that came out of the ice box. I thought if I swam holding on to the centerboard I could help keep the boat from turning turtle. Once I got in water in water where I could stand on the bottom, I was able to reach higher up and righted the boat. I then pulled it up on the shore to inspect for damage and bail the cockpit. I did get water in the cockpit someplace along the way. I didn't damage anything.

One thing for future use if needed (hopefully will not need it tho) is to have a rescue line along the side to have something higher up than the centerboard to pull on. On the Texas 200 I stored my fenders alongside to serve this purpose and free up storage space in my cuddy cabin. I also felt I could use my oars for this purpose as they were secured along the deck on each side.

John

[jdoorly]

Hi Scott, that 3rd pic above is last years old hatch. It was three pieces hinged together and when they were stacked in the 'open' configuration they could lie on the forward part of the hatch frame or hinge one more time to lie vertically against the mast to open the hatch another 33% (7"). It leaked a lot and grabbed jib sheets like a claw.

I looked for quick disconnect hinges for the new curved hatch but was unable to get them at the time, maybe this year. The hinges I installed can to handle the misalignment of the curved deck due to wedged shims under them.

[Alan]

A flooded cuddy during a capsize has been greatly on my nervous little mind, which is why I built my cuddy door.

For what it's worth, the distance from the edge of the cuddy opening to the beam edge on a 1980 DSII is just about 19 inches, measured at 90 degrees to the fore-aft centerline of the boat. As nearly as I can tell, the widest part of the beam, slightly aft of that point, is two inches wider.

The beam is 75 inches, so the distance from the widest part of the beam to the cuddy opening is about 25 per cent of the beam. I can see the air in the seats holding a lightly loaded, capsized boat higher than that, but I'm pleasantly surprised that John's boat, as heavy as it must have been for the Texas 200, didn't take water into the cuddy.

By the way, John, you must be a combination of Charles Atlas and Aquaman. I still hold a current non-surf, open-water lifeguard certification at my advanced age, but I wouldn't want to tow an upright Daysailer, let alone a capsized one.

[jeadstx]

The DS actually pulls thru the water fairly easy. It also rows well with the centerboard down slightly to prevent side slippage. When I capsized I was preparing for the Texas 200 and was not fully loaded. I'm glad that it was not fully loaded, it may have been harder to swim to shore. The cuddy cabin looks like you can put a lot in it, but when you fill it with gear and provisions (lots of water) for 5 or 6 days sailing it fills up quickly. My modifications were to insure a better chance of righting in the Texas 200 if the worst should happen. Here's a video clip someone took of my heavily loaded DS in a 20 knot wind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii49N95X ... ature=plcp My cousin is at the helm and I am forward. The tiller is at an odd angle because we broke the rudder head that morning and jury rigged the tiller. We sailed for 4 days that way.

John

[K.C. Walker]

Alan, don't forget Jack LaLanne!

From Wikipedia:

• 1954 (age 40): swam the entire length (8,981 ft/1.7 mi) of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, under water, with 140 pounds (64 kg; 10 st) of air tanks and other equipment strapped to his body; a world record.
• 1955 (age 41): swam from Alcatraz Island to Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco while handcuffed. When interviewed afterwards he was quoted as saying that the worst thing about the ordeal was being handcuffed, which significantly reduced his chance to do a jumping jack.
• 1956 (age 42): set what was claimed as a world record of 1,033 push-ups in 23 minutes on You Asked For It,[31] a television program hosted by Art Baker.
• 1957 (age 43): swam the Golden Gate channel while towing a 2,500-pound (1,100 kg; 180 st) cabin cruiser. The swift ocean currents turned this one-mile (1.6 km) swim into a swimming distance of 6.5 miles (10.5 km).
• 1958 (age 44): maneuvered a paddleboard nonstop from Farallon Islands to the San Francisco shore. The 30-mile (48 km) trip took 9.5 hours.
• 1959 (age 45): did 1,000 jumping jacks and 1,000 chin-ups in 1 hour, 22 minutes, to promote The Jack LaLanne Show going nationwide. LaLanne said this was the most
• difficult of his stunts, but only because the skin on his hands started ripping off during the chin-ups. He felt he couldn't stop because it would be seen as a public failure.
• 1974 (age 60): For the second time, he swam from Alcatraz Island to Fisherman's Wharf. Again, he was handcuffed, but this time he was also shackled and towed a 1,000-pound (450 kg; 71 st) boat. At least that's according to his website. However, according to an account of this event published the day after it occurred in the Los Angeles Times, written by Philip Hager, a Times staff writer, LaLanne was neither handcuffed nor shackled if each of those terms has the unconventional meaning of "tightly binding the wrists or ankles together with a pair of metal fasteners" although that's not how handcuffs or shackles work. Hager says that LaLanne "had his hands and feet bound with cords that allowed minimal freedom". But "minimal" clearly did not mean "no" freedom, since elsewhere in the article Hager describes LaLanne's method of propulsion through the water as "half-breast-stroke, half-dog paddle" which is how you swim with your hands tied.
• 1975 (age 61): Repeating his performance of 21 years earlier, he again swam the entire length of the Golden Gate Bridge, underwater and handcuffed, but this time he was shackled and towed a 1,000-pound (450 kg; 71 st) boat.
• 1976 (age 62): To commemorate the "Spirit of '76", United States Bicentennial, he swam one mile (1.6 km) in Long Beach Harbor. He was handcuffed and shackled, and he towed 13 boats (representing the 13 original colonies) containing 76 people.[32]
• 1979 (age 65): towed 65 boats in Lake Ashinoko, near Tokyo, Japan. He was handcuffed and shackled, and the boats were filled with 6,500 pounds (2,900 kg; 460 st) of Louisiana Pacific wood pulp.[33]
• 1980 (age 66): towed 10 boats in North Miami, Florida. The boats carried 77 people, and he towed them for over one mile (1.6 km) in less than one hour.
• 1984 (age 70): handcuffed, shackled, and fighting strong winds and currents, towed 70 rowboats, one with several guests, from the Queen’s Way Bridge in the Long Beach Harbor to the Queen Mary, 1 mile.[34]

[hectoretc]

I looked for quick disconnect hinges for the new curved hatch but was unable to get them at the time, maybe this year. The hinges I installed can to handle the misalignment of the curved deck due to wedged shims under them.

Thanks Jay, I was looking at these hinges:

http://www.hardwaresource.com/hinges/FU ... ease+Hinge

http://www.hardwaresource.com/hinges/FU ... less+Steel

The 2nd one looks like it might lift more before tipping to help the curved deck clearance, but yes, I can see they'd need to be shimmed to install level to the overal deck (couldn't be installed to follow the curve).

I like the faster disconnect on the first one though. Always trade-offs...

[hectoretc]

(You could, of course, also cut out a slightly wider opening, and then make the additions for the necessary closure mainly on the inside of the opening. Think: adding a lip on which you'll later add some gasket - like the ones used for a non-sliding car sunroof. The upside is, with the right seal, you could get a "flush" appearance instead of a raised hatch. The downside is you would need to work overhead...or turn the boat.)

As your plans solidify, why not run up a sketch or two of your preferred strategy. Better basis for discussion.

I'm baaaaack...

Returning to this discussion regarding possible companionway hatch seals, GL suggested several good thoughts including building an inside lip that would allow re-use of a cut-out deck section as a hatch cover, to remain somewhat flush with the deck while still providing an option to open said hatch, allowing (as my interests indicated) easier access to the cuddy space.

I understanding this is a major modification which may detract from resale value and those things... (as posted elsewhere, I'm not worried about resale value for this particular boat). So going into that part eye's open, I'd like to get some input regarding some ideas I'm kicking around for such a hatch lip/seal.

Again, for this discussion, I'm not asking if it's a good idea to install a cutout hatch, I'm asking for some technical feedback on a hatch lip idea I'm playing with. (for the purposes of this discussion, assume I've already cut the hole).



I've been pursuing two avenues of thought, both of which re-use the cut out section of cuddy roof as the hatch piece.



The first is to build a wood L frame inside the hatchway (boat section) and an inverted L on the hatch cover piece that fits over and outside of the hatchway frame. (very similar in concept to jdoorly's hatch on Desperado) I've been modeling this with pine because it's cheap and easy to work with. My intent being when I have a final design, I'll use the pine pieces as a model to cut hardwood pieces for final finishing, assembly and use. Fortunately (or not... depending on your perspective), the PO had installed about 24 various soft cover snaps around the cuddy bulkhead which I'll need to fill eventually, but for now they provide easy screw tack points for holding my pieces in place as I try various things out.
I'm calling this the "build up" version, and it has come along far enough that I'm pretty convinced I could make it work, but I'm not yet certain it is best way to go. So I'm pausing now to investigate option 2.

In one of the previous posts of this thread (quoted above), GL had suggested an idea for an inside lip that would allow the hatch to remain essentially flush with the original deck shape when closed. I've not been able to build that model out yet, but am getting close, and this is the one I'd like to get some more input on.

My idea is (as mentioned) for a lip/drain/seal based on the concept suggested by GL.



The idea is to make a fiberglass channel with a long lip with which to attach to the inside, underside of the cuddy ceiling. Three sections of channel would be created forming a "C" with the open ends at the cuddy bulkhead. It is shown here as square channel, but I really envision the channel being round or at least rounded corners. The depth of the side channels would start shallow near the mast, and increase toward the cuddy bulkhead so water captured would be drawn by gravity to the drain system which I'll fabricate at the bulkhead down to the cuddy/cockpit drains. My intent is to use a round rubber seal (I'm still thinking of the air conditioning pipe insulation or similar) to provide a water resistant seal between the channel edge and the hatch piece. I may have to mold some aluminum stock into this edge for it to be stiff enough. Might need some input on that.

There also would need to be a clamp system to cinch the hatch cover down equally onto the rubber boots around the edges, but that's phase II, only necessary if I decide to go this route.

Acknowledging that the deck is curved in the lateral plane (but too much work to do for this quick sketchup drawing) I know I'll have to address that curve for the long portion of the C, either making smaller pieces attached in sections and joined, or making a complex mold for my channel that follows the curve of the deck/cuddy ceiling.
Since I've already cut several pieces of wood for the "build up" design that conform to the deck curve, I may already have what I need to make that complex curved mold.

I would intend to add a stiffener/strengthener along the mounting tab of the channel to restore deck strength and would add a wood or fiberglass stiffener around the outside bottom of the hatch piece as well to position it snuggly within the channels in addition as adding stiffening to the hatch deck surface.

So at this point I think I'm looking for some suggestions, thoughts, comments or alternative ideas about the lip/drain/seal channel.
I'll probably start working up that model during the long new years weekend.

Thanks,

[GreenLake]

Seeing your pine model, I have an idea how you could manufacture your "lip". As I'm not going to submit a CAD drawing, some of my description will be in terms of one side of the opening (the full opening has 3 sides).

The idea has two components. One is that the easiest way to lay up laminate is to have a mold. The other is to incorporate a bit of stiffener for the hull opening, because I think that part of the cuddy deck was supposed to contribute to the stiffness of the boat.

OK, so taking one edge of the opening. From two pine strips create an L profile that lies flat on the deck (long leg) and hangs a bit into the opening (short leg). Where the deck is curved, bend the flat part (long leg) first, before attaching the vertical (short leg). Use a router to make sure the bottom edge of the short leg of the profile follows the curvature of the deck.

This is your (male) mold. Repeat operation for the other two sides, joint all three with mitered corners and coat liberally with paraffin wax. (To joint the strips a few nails backed up by some epoxy-perhaps quick setting for the latter-should be fine.)

You can now either laminate overhead, or take your mold off, turn it around and laminate more conveniently on a bench. The latter requires that the deck thickness is constant and that the "long" leg of the L was following the deck closely. If that is the case, you can later glue your laminated piece underneath the opening (The depth of the short leg would be adjusted, deeper if you laminate in place, shallower if you laminate on the workbench).

Instead of simply laying up 2-3 layers of laminate onto your mold, I would do one or two layers, then put foam strips into the inside "corner" of the L profile, and then complete the layup with one or two additional layers. The foam will give some bulk the whole thing, and you'll be amazed how stiff it will be. The laminate would go over the top of the short leg of the L profile and down again.

After all has cured, you release from the mold and use epoxy glue, to glue it all underneath the deck. Gluing from underneath would be much simpler than laminating overhead.

After you've glued the contraption under your deck, I would use a router again to trim the laminate that is supposed to get the rubber seal to a consistent height, relative to the deck. Then add your sealant strip the way you've drawn it, and voila.

Well, you get the idea.

There are many other possibilities for realizing a similar drain/seal. I can think of a wood/fiberglass or wood/metal combination off hand.

[hectoretc]

Thanks GL -
That was exactly along the lines of suggestions I was looking for. I've intended all along to do my layup work on the bench. It's actually very mild for December here this year, but still too cold out to try and bring the whole boat up to a temperature where I could lay up fiberglass directly on the cuddy. I'm also certain I don't have the accumulated fiberglass working skills to do it overhead with any confidence, and this will be a very noticeable part of the boat. Although I was planning to build the channel on the bench, hadn't yet considered the idea of building the mold on the boat, and then simply removing and flipping it over (excellent idea).

I'll concentrate on making the mold first and then pause to review the actual lay-up process and sequence. As I said, I think I probably have 75% of the materials I need already, reusing some of my early "build up" edge parts that I reworked/replaced for various reasons.

One thing I need to know is how the cuddy roof slopes fore & aft when level in calm water. Can someone verify to me that that waterline (white band) around the hull of the boat is essentially the design "level" line?

If that is the case, I can use a laser level on that line to level the boat on the trailer for & aft and make my own measurement to determine the slope.



I'll need to build the mold so the aft portion is lower then the forward part so the water runs back toward my drain.

Thanks - Scott

[GreenLake]

One thing I need to know is how the cuddy roof slopes fore & aft when level in calm water. Can someone verify to me that that waterline (white band) around the hull of the boat is essentially the design "level" line?

I'll need to build the mold so the aft portion is lower then the forward part so the water runs back toward my drain.

Assuming that the DS1 and DSII aren't different, I think that the entire cuddy deck slopes forward.

That would make your job harder - or you could just provide for a small drain tube (the clear plastic kind) from the lowest point forward...

[GreenLake]

If you are interested to go by a line alrady on the boat, I'd use the waterline on the hull, if you have one, as a base. May not be correct after modifications, but gives you a start.