Soda bottle flotation

[bm1981]

What I was thinking was to take down the 3rd wheel on the trailer and put the bow down. Then putting an electric bilge pump in the bow tank bilge area and hosing out each seat tank. Being sure to keep a minimal amount of water in the bilge.

Basically I'm trying to use the water to float any remaining foam "balls" to the bow at which point i can get in there and shop vac them out. I figure this way I will keep the debris away from the transom drain plug.

I've had the full shop vac hose in each tank but i can't get my hand and the hose in there at the same time (4" ports) i got a good chunk of the junk that i could see out but there is still more.

As an aside...

Buoyancy is roughly equal to the amount of water displaced. So each 2L bottle will provide 4.2 to 4.5 LBs of buoyancy depending on which calculation you use. There is no way I took out 500LBS of positive buoyancy foam from the DSII was O'day betting there being some air trapped in the hull to keep the boat afloat? I mean my bow tank was totally empty, I filled it with 39 2L bottles or 168LBs of floatation.

Assume I did nothing else to the boat, and left both seat tanks as is, how can this boat float while the cockpit and bilge is full of water? I know it will, I was up to the gunwales in water with 4 people onboard and it was still floating. The only thing i can think of is that the top half of the inner hull traps enough air to keep the boat afloat.

My new concern is that the inspection ports aren't airtight and that if I'm hulled they will leak the air they trap and I'd be worse off than if i'd done nothing.

[GreenLake]

Get an extra inspection port. Drill a hole in the lid. Add a valve of some kind, perhaps a bicycle one. Replace it in place of one of your regular ports. Use a (manual) pump to create a very small amount of overpressure. Let sit. Check whether there's still overpressure the next day, or after several hours. That would be my idea of a test.

(Don't blow your boat apart!)

[GreenLake]

...in my neighborhood, you show up absolutely dry or the inspectors don't let you in the water.

Can you elaborate? I never heard of such inspectors.

[Alan]

GreenLake,

This is in Santa Clara County, California. The local reservoirs are operated for flood control and water supply by the Santa Clara Valley Water District, and for recreational boating by Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation.

The water district is worried about aquatic nuisance species (zebra mussels, etc.), being introduced to the water by recreational boats. They've closed all but four of the eleven reservoirs to boats of any kind (except in a few cases with special permits). Two of the four are closed to boating between Oct. 15 and April 15.

They've also mandated an inspection program, which is operated by parks and rec. You show up, park the boat, pay $7.50 (on top of the $8 day use fee and $7 for parking), and get inspected. Oh, and you have to produce current registration documents for the boat (or for your vehicle, if the boat is a non-registered type such as a canoe or kayak).

The inspectors check the bilge and lower unit (if you've got one) for water, and they check the hull for rough patches that might indicate mussels. If you're dry and clean, you can launch. Once you're done sailing, they place a Tyvek band between the bow hook and winch stand. If the band stays intact, you can launch on your next visit without paying another inspection fee.

If the boat's wet for any reason, you can't launch. This means that you can't launch on a rainy day, unless you've been previously banded. You also can't launch at all if the boat is registered in any one of several Southern California counties.

[Skippa]

The season is almost over here in Minnesota. As required by the city, my 1980 DSII is out of the water. I installed a 6 inch port in the forward bulkhead and two 5 inch ports in setee bulkheads. Floatation removal in the bow was easy, Large pieces of loose foam blocks. The floatation under the seats is another matter all together. I spent a couple of hours and have removed about 1/4 of the foam on the starboard side, Much is heavy and wet so I am not going to stop until it is removed. Looks like 4 to 6 long peices of 2x4 foam, glued together with spray foam.
I am thinking others have been here before me and might have a tip or two on the best way to break up the foam blocks for removal. If nothing else, I am considering adding another inspection port on the lower verticle portion of the seats so I can reach in and saw the foam into smaller chunks for removal. Other thoughts run to piano wire wrapped around the foam and pulled tight.
It's going to come out, just a matter of how many new words I learn along the way.
Thanks for any advice
Kevin

[hectoretc]

Hi Skippa,
As long as I had the rotozip fired up, I decided to follow your lead and get some access ports in the cuddy bulkhead to also check/replace the flotation. I saw the exact same thing you did in the forward bulkhead, filled to the top with hand sized pieces of styrofoam, but I was surprised when I opened up the starboard side and put in a drop light.

I thought somebody had forgot the flotation altogether until I raised my head enough to see under the seats. Is this about what you saw too? I ran out of time and didn't get around to reaching in and trying to grab anything, but I'm assuming (by the blob visible) that these are probably glued in as you described. Seems like there is a lot more room for flotation in there, and there will be when I'm done.

The port side was a little more disorganized... Kinda piled in. It looks looser but I guess I can't say until I grab one and pull.

Interesting that they sort of hung some styrofoam on the cooler, but I guess that makes sense.
Have you found a good/better/best way to get your foam out yet?
Thanks,

[Skippa]

Scott,
Yes, the photo's you posted are near identical to what I found. The glued in mass under the cockpit floor is what I am having issues with. It was easy enough to move it all the way to starboard but it is a bear to seperate and break into chunks that can be removed through the access port. I am having some success with my "piano wire" tool.
I purchased a nine foot coil of picture frame hanger wire, 40 # strength. I cut that in half and used a couple of 1x1 wood scraps as handles. I use the 4 in deck plate in the sole of the cockpit and the 5 in access hole on the cuddy bulk head to help position my cutting wire around the foam mass. It's not easy but it does cut through the foam enough so I can man handle it into smaller pieces.
I believe there is another mass of foam under the cuddy floor as well. I havn't gotten up the nerve to look yet. I am over 75% done removing the cockpit foam at this time, Waiting for bruises, cuts and sore muscles to heal before I go back at it.
Good luck with yours.
Kevin

[hectoretc]

Skippa - are you ever right about the soggy styrofoam.
I finally reached in and grabbed piece and pulled. It all came loose together (heavy though) and I thought "awesome... I'll just break off a piece at a time and pull it through the port.
Turns out I only had a 3 ft. single 2x4 piece in my hand, but it wieghed as much as a solid wood 2x4. I defies imagination that a styrofoam piece can weigh that much.
I too set out to pull out the rest, but unfortunately my access port is a little too high. I can lay on my back & reach in with my left arm, but my elbow won't bend the way it needs to to be able to go down to the foam. I re-read your extraction technique so I'll try that when I get back to it.
The good news is, I don't think there is any under the cuddy floor (as indicated by looking in the cavernous cracks in my cuddy floor). Do we think there is any under the cockpit floor?
Absolutely no question I'm going to put in a couple 8" ports in the seats near the stern. There's just no way to get at all of this mess otherwise. And it's pretty clear it needs to be done before it freezes. I can heat my workspace but I don't keep it heated 24/7. If this stuff freezes, won't get it out till May.
Incredible...

[jdoorly]

I've been reading this thread with interest because I decided after an older thread on this subject to remove the wet styrofoam and re-fill those areas with soda bottles. However, I just thought of a problem with doing that.

The DS1 and DS2 are designed to have watertight integrity 'tanks', the DS2 has, to my estimation, about 4-5 times more volume reserved for tanks. To quote Oday marketing: "The new Day Sailer II sailboat features positive foam flotation … the addition of two cockpit inspection/bailing ports and a self-bailing cockpit. She can be righted if capsized, just by the weight of the crew." Can we assume from this that since the DS2 isn't so easy to right that the DS1 must be a bear! Here's yet another problem, missunderstanding flotation.

The air tanks don't need any foam or swim noodles or styrofoam to work as long as they have watertight integrity. And the watertight integrity that they have does not need to be perfect. It only needs to delay the heavy water from displacing the light air until a solution is provided. Like standing on the centerboard.

The foam, etc., comes into play only when there is a catastrophic loss of watertight integrity (i.e. the flotation tank is holed). Then the foam, and there is usually very little of it may be adequate to keep the boat partially afloat. The reason there is so much foam in the bow tank compared to the seat tanks is the likelyhood of your boat being at fault in a collision.

However, if you are holed those little cubes will soon be found floating all around you as you doggie paddle toward shore. Are soda bottles any better? At least the styrofoam 2x4's were glued to the cockpit floor when the boat was manufactured.

I'm thinking whatever I use is going to be attached to the boat but not permanently in case I have to replace it in x years.

[algonquin]

However, if you are holed those little cubes will soon be found floating all around you as you doggie paddle toward shore. Are soda bottles any better? At least the styrofoam 2x4's were glued to the cockpit floor when the boat was manufactured.

I'm thinking whatever I use is going to be attached to the boat but not permanently in case I have to replace it in x years.

As long as the flotation is contained in the compartment there should not be a problem. If the hole becomes large enough for 2 liter bottles to float through you have a whole lot more to worry about. To prevent that you could insert a large net type bag into the compartment and then insert the bottles into the bag. More than not they should stay within the compartment and provide flotation. Brad

[hectoretc]

Skippa- if you haven't finished your waterlogged styrofoam extraction yet, and to anyone else just getting into it, I strongly suggest you put a 6" or 7" (8" won't fit) watertight access port about 18-24" forward of the transom in the cockpit seat fronts (lower seat. Not the seat backs) on both sides.

Be advised at least on my boat, there is some kind of fiberglass tube (about the size if a paper towel cardboard tube) in the last 12" of seat toward the stern. Assuming its to strengthen that section, so probably best not to cut there.

With the holes for the ports cut, I was able to reach in, and break off, or with the help of a hacksaw blade (gently) cut the foam into 12-18" sections that came out easily.

Only about 30 minutes from start to empty on both sides. Lots of scratches and scrapes on my wrists, but what good us it if you can't show everybody how hard it was.
I bet I pulled 50-60 lbs of water soaked styrofoam out. I took a piece out to the lake and tossed it in, it sank but came back to the top, so I'm thinking it would've been pretty ineffective if needed in an emergency. I shoved the hose of my shop vac into each side to collect the bits that got away, and will probably stick a fan against one hole to circulate some air in there for a while and then vacuum again.
Kind of unimpressed by the tiny size of the drains in the bilge. I know its supposed to be sealed, but it will take nearly nothing to plug these tubes.
I am amazed there was no mold though. But we'll take our breaks where we get them.

[talbot]

Question: Why are noodles a bad idea? They are relatively easy to install. What are the drawbacks?

[jdoorly]

Talbot, I assume your questioning my statement above about swim noodles. I could be wrong. I thought I was wrong once, but I was wrong. Anyway, I just walked into the party like I walking into a yacht...

There's nothing wrong with swim noodles. I spent many happy hours of therapy in the arms of a swim noodle. Some of my best friends are...ARG! I can't stop it HELP ME!!!

My earlier point was that they put foam inside bouyancy tanks in case the tank gets ruptured and water tries to fill the tank, the foam prevents the water from filling the space that the foam takes up. If the foam is in small chunks, those small pieces might escape out of the hole that let the water in. So don't use small objects for bouyancy, and try to find a way of fastening what you do use to the boat so it won't float away if you hit something or something hits you.

[hectoretc]

Anyway, I just walked into the party like I walking into a yacht...

Your hat strategically tipped below one eye... your scarf, it was apricot. (now look what you've done...)


After sitting around last night scrutinizing my fabulous work in progress photos (yeah... I need a life), I realized that this particular picture has some additional relevance.
Maybe everybody already knows this, but for those who don't and still care, the forward crack in my cuddy floor as adorned by the that brown stripe of fiberglass is exactly over the forward bilge "wall"? that separates it from the forward floatation hold. I had noticed when removing all the styrofoam blocks from the forward floatation chamber that the forward bulkhead's lower edge (in view here) stops at the cuddy floor, and there is a portion of the front chamber that goes back under the floor. I had though it connected entirely to the bilge under the cuddy, but realized that it couldn't because the styrofoam blocks did not fall under the floor.

I went back and looked at my under cuddy shot (note the mast base)

and used a little spacial perspective to realize the bulkhead seen here is closer then the "inside the cuddy" bulkhead.
I have no idea if this means anything to anybody, but it's just another interesting (or not) factoid to put away in case you want to put yet another access port on the forward floor of the cuddy to get to the bottom of the forward hold.
Just add this to the stack of "oh... and why do I care about that?" stuff...

[Alan]

talbot,

I'm thinking the problems with swim noodles were the price and the fact that they have a longitudinal hole in the middle, so you'd need to cut and overlap them to fill the space with foam.