ID Hull number

[Pierce56]

I am new to the forum and looking to buy a Daysailer. I am looking at a boat that the owner says is a 1972 DS II. It doesn't have numbers stamped into the stern but a silver plate inside the cockpit on the stern. It reads Hull No. 3111 Class No. 6101. What does this mean?
I understand the other format XDYD-------- on the newer models.

I have confirmed these are the numbers.

How do I post a picture of this plate?


I have seen and reviewed some the reply's and I have looked through out this forum. I have a DSII it isn't a DS1, that I am sure of. I believe it is a 1972, that is what is one the title. Could the two numbers have been transposed at construction time?

[kokko]

THere is an official, unofficial hull number list on the History tab on this forum Based on your hull numbr of 3111, the boat is probably '66-'67 and is likely a DS1, not a DSII. Most notably, the DSII's have a cockpit liner and there are boards to close off the cuddy.
My boat is 3395 and of the same vintage.

[GreenLake]

The relevant number is the class #. That's the number you would carry on your sail and the number found in the Hull Number Index.

After 1973 the HIN contains the class #, but before, there was a separate accounting of "hulls", which, according to what people write about it, seems to have counted hulls even across product lines. (Why your hull # is lower than your class # is unclear, there seem to be many boats where the reverse is true.)

The smallest class # for a DSII is 4522, but the highest # for the DS1 built by ODay is left open in the index - I interpret that as nobody knows how ODay apportioned class numbers between these two models during the few years that they built both.

As @kokko writes, there's an easy way to confirm whether you have a DSII - a brief glance at the Photo Album on this site (check the personal galleries as well) will tell you the difference.

If you do, then the 1972 date would be entirely consistent.
Here's another list to check (and where you can add your boat, by adding a post with the details)

[hectoretc]

I am new to the forum and looking to buy a DaySailer. I am looking at a boat that the owner says is a 1972 DS II. It doesn't have numbers stamped into the stern but a silver plate inside the cockpit on the stern. It reads Hull No. 3111 Class No. 6101. What does this mean?
I understand the other format XDYD-------- on the newer models.

My DSII is hull number 6127 and this group extrapolated during a previous exercise that it's most likely a late 1972 or early 1973, so we're 72 boats apart (almost cousins as sailboats go). Late 72 is a good probability.

Good Luck - Scott

[Briguy]

Here is a better one for you Hull No. 25820 Class 4707 Boat was made in Fall River MA Therefore my SailNumber is 25820

[navahoIII]

Briguy,

I think it's the other way around regarding your numbers.

As I understand it, your hull number is the total number of boats built by O'Day up to that point. The class number represents the total number of boats built of a certain type, such as the Daysailer, up to that point.

For example, our DS1 was built in 1961. Its hull number is 6555 and its class (or 'sail') number is 1001. It was the one thousand and first DS1 built to that point, yet it was the 6555th boat built by O'Day to that point.

Make my point?

[Briguy]

Thanks That Makes sense

[Cavofficer6]

I've just purchased a DSII, which (according to it's Ohio registration) was built in 1970. It is, without a doubt, a DSII - but, the metal plate on the inside of the transom (highly legible, no damage to it) says "Built by The O'Day Company, Fall River Massachusetts, Hull NO 3035, Class NO 5700" There are no other identifying numbers or plates on it, other than it's Ohio Divison of Watercraft H.I.N. - which is OHZ 51823 D070. From everything I've read, a Hull number of 3035 is far too low for a DS II, but like I said it is definately a DS II (because of the cuddy shape, outside plates on the port and starboard cuddy cabin which say Daysailer II, etc.)

Anyone know how to help me unravel the mystery of this boat's true hull number and manufacture date?

[GreenLake]

State registration records before the implementation of the federal HIN are not to be trusted.

My '63 DS1 is registered as being a '71. My personal theory, unsubstantiated alas, is that it was grandfathered when the state registration was created, and the default setting was '71. The early plaques, as you discovered, do not give a record of a date, so any registration system that requires the year will have to base that on other information. That's why I think state records should not be taken at face value for those early years.

I think you are right about the hull details. (BTW, you might consider posting a few pictures of your boat.)

You quote the plaque:

Built by The O'Day Company, Fall River Massachusetts, Hull NO 3035, Class NO 5700

You realize that the term "Hull NO" on these plaques has nothing to do with the "hull number" that is bandied about in the Hull Number Index on this site?

Before HINs were introduced hulls were not numbered per design or model, so that the sail number ("Class NO") was awarded separately. Later, with the HIN, these numbers coincide, so people casually speak of "hull numbers" when they strictly mean "sail numbers" (aka Class NO).

Your Class NO of 5700 is comfortably within the range of numbers shown in the index for the DSII. And it seems much to high to be a '70.

The DS1 hull has seen subtle changes over the years, and there's now a registry of these changes with best available data on years and sail numbers. Perhaps an enterprising DS II owner could launch the same thing for the early DSII's?

Finally, there's the Official= Unofficial Hull Number List, which lists boats with dates and owners for both DS1 and DS2. Since you've posted the information here, why not add it to that thread as well. Looks like "Boone" go the boat that was build a day or two after yours.

With a bit of search you would have discovered, btw, that the previous onwer came here with precisely the same question. The poster mentioned that the boat was sitting on a '72 trailer. I would tend to believe that there's a good chance that trailer is the first and only one used with that boat, because if you extrapolate the increase in hull number / year backwards in the "un-official" list, '72 is a likely date.

[Cavofficer6]

GreenLake:

Yes, I saw the previous owners post, but I didn't see anywhere that he had received a somewhat definitive answer. I just wanted to have a better idea of the date of manufacture of the boat, and I was pretty sure 1970 was too early. It is in fabulous shape, and I'll get some pictures posted soon. Thanks for the suggestion on posting my info on that thread - I'll do that tonight. Thanks again.

[GreenLake]

You are welcome, and before I forget, also a hearty welcome to the forum!

[redtailseven]

Just for fun, my new boat is definately a DSII, have looked at all the pictures as Greenlake suggested.

Its Hull number is 3097 and its class number is 6101. Thus is is 14 boats away from Peirce56's boat and the same class.

I noticed that there are several DS I's with SN in the 3500 randge and 5000 range.

My theory is that the SNs were given out in order. The first DSII's getting numbers even as the DS I's were being produced. The class number would be different and have nothening to do with chronology. Firearms often have this situation. Some manufacturers "batch" their numbers, some don't.

Peirce, I am going to put up some pictures in a day or so. In the meantime, do you possibly have a tapered mast and a traveler across the CB trunk for the main sheet?

Greg

[redtailseven]

My class number and Pierce's class number are the same, 6101, and the seriel numbers are close 3097 and 3111. Could it be that they are built to the same configuration. Cavofficer6' boat with a lower SN, 3035 and lower class number, 5700. was an earlier boat, configured differently.

At the same time. the DS I line was cranking out their models and filling orders, while the new DS II was getting up to speed and beginning to take orders.

The guy with the serial numbers was just counting either boat as it left the factory, or numbering them consecutively in batches or classes.

This neatly accounts for the early numbers on the DS II's, 2000 numbers at least below the late DSI's. Its not suprising that many would still order the original even as the new model was coming out.

Does anyone know if factory documents from this time exist?

[GreenLake]

My class number and Pierce's class number are the same, 6101, and the seriel numbers are close 3097 and 3111. Could it be that they are built to the same configuration. Cavofficer6' boat with a lower SN, 3035 and lower class number, 5700. was an earlier boat, configured differently.

Three things. First, the abbreviation SN is ambiguous. I thought at first you meant "sail number', but realize now that you meant "serial number" in the sense of "Hull NO" which is how it's usually stamped on the plaques.

Second, there should never be a case of a duplicate "class" number (sometimes called sail number, because it's displayed on the sails). It's really important that these numbers are unique, because how can you compete in a race, otherwise?

If this can be confirmed as an exception and it's not a typo, then we should document that here. Also, I'd love to know from people who've been around this game a while longer, whether other duplicate and confirmed numbers are known to have occurred.

Third, the "hull numbers" (in the time before the HIN system) are not unique. They can also be higher than the number of boats produced in a class. Someone wrote here that they were counting all hulls, regardless of model, for a certain builder (or perhaps facility?).

The numbers for the new DSII are so low, because the counting must have started over - whether that was finally based on the model, or whether it means there was a separate factory, or whether O'Day changed organization or boatbuilder's license in some other way that forced them to reset the count - I don't know, and I doubt that any records survived. But "hull" numbers are just a "red herring" in this game.

(Later of course, the "Sail number" became part of the HIN, so after 73 you can interchangeably speak of "sail" and "hull" numbers.

[redtailseven]

My new theory is that the class numbers started with the first DSI and at about hull 3000, the hull numbers were set to 0. Oday may have been using a total number of boays system, explaining Navoho's DS I hull 6555.

O'day sold the company to Punta Bangor in 1966, possibly starting the new series of hull numbers. The class No. system would have had to continue intact. Assuming that about 2500 DS I's had been built to this point, this would account for the differences in the numbers

With Cavofficer's hull at 3035, his hull would be 62 before mine. His class number of 5700 is 401 before mine. Could 339 DS I's and 62 DS II's have been built between these two boats? The DS I must have been still very popular and the DS II just starting production.

What is even harder to explain is the Peirce56 and I both have Class No. 6101. With hull numbers only 14 apart, there must have been a mistake. I have not reciived my sails yet. I would really like to know his sail number.

I have a photo of my plate, but I can't figure out how to upload it.