At wit's end! <long>

[TIM WEBB]

OK, I'm about to turn The Red Witch into the Dead Witch! This CB UH cable leak into the bilge is driving me crazy! Thought I had it fixed until day 3 of the FL 120, when it became quite apparent that I indeed had not. Water POURED into the bilge from both ends of the opening: from the trunk side due to huge wave pressure against the CB, and from the cuddy side due to massive amounts of water coming over the bow and gunwales into the cockpit/cuddy, which my bilge pump could not keep up with. It was up to the inspection port openings by the time I finally called it quits!

Got the boat home, opened everything up, tilted her WAY bow up, and dried 'er out. Started doing some sleuthing last week: all plugs in, boat level (I use the seats for fore and aft leveling) on trailer. Just like if it was in the water. Filled the cockpit with water just until it covered the two inspection ports next to the CB trunk, just aft of the cuddy bulkhead, but before it backed up into the cuddy through the drain holes. Waited a bit, then tilted the boat back and opened the bilge drain. Nothing. Opened the inspection ports. Nothing. Bilge dry as bone. Rules out the ports!

Repeated the experiment, except this time with the boat bow-down enough for the water to get into the cuddy and reach the CB UH opening. Right away I could hear the water pouring into the bilge. Some was dripping out of the CB trunk, but most was getting into the bilge ...

So, I pulled out the brass piece that I had installed in there before (see my gallery), cleaned out the area as best I could, and took a really good look in there with an LED light and a mirror. I had filler material missing from at least 2/3 of the circumference of the space between the two openings, and the UH cable had sawed into the upper part of the opening much more than I thought it had ...

So, I got some chopped FG filler material (Bondo), mixed it up, and smushed it into/all around the hole as best I could. Made sure I filled in all the voids, and then some. Double checked and triple checked. Followed the directions precisely. Sweated my tukus off sitting there all hunched over in the cuddy. Thought I had a great seal/repair goin' on. Let the FG cure, then crawled back in there, re-tapped the hole, and epoxied in a new brass nipple. Let that sit for a couple days, then repeated the "experiment" AAARRRGHHHHH! Same result!

I swear I am at wit's end with this swiss cheese boat, and if I can't find a solution to this problem (no, dropping the CB is not an option), I may have to take up skydiving again!

[GreenLake]

(no, dropping the CB is not an option)

Why?

I have a DS1, so I don't share your frustration with inaccessible areas, but I've had my DS on its side two different ways, by myself, and on its back once, with 2 helpers - so getting to the CB from the underside can't be the problem. Is there anything DSII specific that keeps you from inspecting the CB trunk from below?

I also don't know about "bondo" - 3M makes something called "high strength marine filler" which is polyester based, so it's somewhat like bondo, but the filler material would be sure to be formulated for water immersion, which I heard was the Achilles heel of Bondo. I like the 3M stuff, it's definitely strong.

Can you see where the water is leaking? If you suspect fine cracks - you could try some penetrating epoxy (not the stuff with solvents, but something like RotFix from SystemThree - flows like water). If you suspect wider cracks, use thicker epoxy (?) Just thick enough that it will not all run through your cracks before curing.

You can flush the bilge itself with vinegar - that should prevents the epoxy from curing in a puddle in your bilge...but only if you get it in before the epoxy gels - I use that regularly for cleanup and the acid interrupts the chemical reaction.

OK, maybe not the best suggestion...how about a drip pan introduced through the inspection ports.

[brucybaby]

Tim, My Ds2 has been dry so I haven't inspected the area on her closely, but my '79 Widgeon had an inner hull leak through a seam between the inner and outer hull that met right where the centerboard bolt went through. I found it by filling the inner hull up with water via the drainplug hole. The leak was a stream of water 'bout the size of a straw. I was amazed at how fast it could fill up the bilge.
On a DS2, I'd puff up some talcum around the CB area and fill'er up. You should be able to see trails of any water dripping through. Just an idea

[TIM WEBB]

Thanks for the replies guys.

GL, I can't drop the CB (as in completely remove it, so as to be able to take the UH cable out of the hole and get at the inside better) because some PO totally encased the ends of the CB pivot bolt in some kind of goop that has defied all my attempts to remove it.

With the board up (on the trailer), I can barely see up into the trunk from below. Shining a light up there, I can see where the UH cable goes through, but not much else.

As far as the bondo goes, it says it is for marine use, so I assumed that it would be waterproof. The problem is that I think I'm just not able to get enough of it into the void between the casing and trunk, and the brass nipple is not reaching all the way into the trunk (couldn't find a longer one). I guess I'll tear it all out and start over again, possibly using a piece of brass pipe that I can cut to length, rather than a threaded nipple.

Bruce, you're lucky to have a dry boat! As far as I've been able to tell, there are no other leaks into the bilge from above or below the waterline, with the exception of the lower rudder gudgeon, which I've fixed.

[GreenLake]

Ah, now I remember, your goop. You've mentioned that before.

I guess the way the UH is probably located that even extending the CB all the way, with the boat on its side won't get you much better view.

If the bondo is for marine use, then it may be a closer cousin to the 3M high strength filler.

Let me see whether I got that right. You suspect your leak is where the UH cable exits the trunk, so water splashes there, into the space between the hulls and runs into the bilge.

If you had access to the location from the trunk side, and were able to string the cable through a new tube from that side as well, then you could try to fashion some kind of tube that ends in something like a flared opening like a trumpet. Sealing that against the trunk would seem to give you a better chance of achieving a positive seal.

Or is your leak predominantly from the cockpit/cuddy to the bilge (I can picture that part, but not having a DS2 I can't quite visualize where your UH cable exist inside the boat - too low?).

[talbot]

I have spent years recovering from past owners' decisions. I would go after that pivot bolt. Sooner or later, that board is going to have to come out of there for maintenance. I sounds like something is cracked that you can't see.

[TIM WEBB]

Correct: CB up or down, it's hard to see up there (I've also had the boat careened and inverted before).

Also correct: there are voids between the trunk and cap. This link explains it pretty well:

http://www.bobhunkins.com/mt-archives/DS2CBTLK_100.pdf

Any water coming into the hole from either end (cuddy or trunk) can and will get into the bilge via those voids. Surprisingly little water needs to get into the cuddy for it to backflow into the CB UH opening, since it is right at cuddy floor level (lower than the sideview illustration shows), pretty much at the same level as the cuddy bulkhead-to-cockpit sole drain holes ...

talbot: I have attacked that pivot bolt goop many times, with many different tools and tricks. No joy. I think we could have nuclear armageddon, and the only things that would be left would be cockroaches and that goop ...

Sure wish I had the later (earlier?) "wedges and pin" arrangement!

[talbot]

Sounds like it might have been done with something like 3M 5200. There actually are solvents for that stuff. The Precision Boat Works web site has directions on how to remove the centerboard from their pocket cruisers (installed with 5200). The procedures might prove useful.

But your research supports the idea that the immediate problem is not the pivot. There is some fault between the cabin and bilge that you have not identified.

It breaks my heart that this turned up in mid-season, and in the middle of a long sail. Vicariously, I love to hear about the preparations for these adventures, and I'm always cheering you guys on. Hang in there.

[Alan]

Tim,

Any chance you could post photos? I've been trying to think it through, without luck.

For what it's worth, the wedge-and-pin arrangement is on later DSIIs, like my 1980 (also on the DSIII). It's got its own flaws, if the car bondo gooped onto the wedge retainer plates on my boat is any indication.

[TIM WEBB]

talbot:

This is not a deal breaker - I mean, I can still sail the boat anytime in the local lakes. We don't really have a "season" down here anyway, and even if we did, this would be the "guaranteed afternoon thunderstorm season" anyway, where we don't like going out to be "lightning rods"!

I have no idea what 3M 5200 is, but if that stuff cures like the stuff they put around nuclear reactors, then that's it! Thanks for the link to Precision - I'll check it out ...

Besides, I am almost sure it's not the pivot bolt: when I fill the bilge with water up to the level of the PB, nothing comes out of the CB trunk underneath. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. No, my issues are with H2O getting into the bilge from above, ie the cockpit/cuddy pan ...

But, I *am* hanging in there, and going about this very methodically, checking every nook and cranny of that cockpit/cuddy pan for leak sources!

Alan:

I've tried to get photos of the pivot bolt, but every time I stick a camera down through the inspection ports to take pix of what I'm trying to work on down there, all I get is blurry shots of everything *except* the PB. Any suggestions? The only way I've been able to get a look at it is by sticking a mirror down there ...

[GreenLake]

How about taking a picture of the mirror?

If I get your description, the water enters via the top of the CB trunk? And your task would be to seal inaccessible gaps at that location? Foam?

[TIM WEBB]

I'll try, but it's a small mirror - one of those telescoping ones you get from the auto parts store. Not sure my pix of that would be any better ...

Actually, I think very little water if any gets in through the top of the trunk (CB downhaul). The more I'm studying the situation, the more I'm convinced that the issue is far more widespread than just the CB UH hole: there are all kinds of holes in the cockpit/cuddy pan that I hadn't even suspected! Some I've put there myself, without ever even considering that they open up to the bilge, and some I'm finding that were there LONG before The 'Witch ever got me. Take for example the jibsheet tracks: those holes were wallered out and done for a long time ago, and I eventually just mounted them in a permanent location. Easy peasy, right? Wrong! Those old holes (used to, now) still open up to the bilge, and even tho you might think that they are WAY above the waterline, when the cockpit is taking on water like crazy while you're sailing single-handed and the boat is heeling over big time, all that water in the cockpit becomes water that is spilling into any opening or hole that it can find, no matter where it is ...

I've thought about the expanding foam idea for some of the openings I've found, but the only drawback to that is it's really difficult to really control where it goes and how much it expands. So, I'm going with epoxy to seal up most of 'em ...

[GreenLake]

Anytime you can access a hole, epoxy is better - but remember to give it UV protection...

Foam is tricky - I could see it mainly for places where you have non-structural cracks that you simply can't get at, but that foam could be forced into (and that are too wide to drip a liquid into).

I would never suggest to fill large hollow spots with it, because you'll always later want to access them.

If your camera has a way to set the focus manually, even many cheap ones have a menu for that, then, when using a mirror, make sure to set the focus for the effective combined distance: object-mirror-camera.

Then, even with a small mirror, you wont get just the "rim" of the mirror in perfect focus...but hopefully your pviot.

Can you "plug" the downhaul and uphaul openings temporarily? If so, you could invert your boat and fill the trunk and see how fast the water-level drops....

[TIM WEBB]

Yeah, I intend to paint over all the places where I've schmeared the epoxy into/over holes. In fact, I intend to repaint the whole boat later this year ...

I used the expanding foam in the top and bottom of the mast to try to seal it/increase it's flotation - figured it couldn't do any harm, and after it cured, it was easy enough to just trim it off at all the places (old hardware mounting holes, etc.) where it had expanded/oozed out.

I'll try the camera + mirror thing and see what I get. Not sure I really wanna *see* what's on the PB, based on what I *feel* when I stick my hand down in there!

If I plug the CB UH and DH holes, turn the boat over, and fill the trunk w/ water, how will I know if water can still seep into the void and down into the bilge, when down would then be up? Maybe I'm just not picturing something right in my kepi ...

[GreenLake]

The idea being to exclude the CB trunk as a source of water coming into the boat. Filling the trunk will result in a bit of pressure near the top (now bottom). Any leak in that area should be obvious - no matter where the water actually ends up during the test.

If you have only very tiny leaks, and only near the very top of the trunk, chances are, there would be even less leakage in normal sailing position. That means, your water comes from somewhere else.

For a test, you'd need to agitate your CB in case there are any cracks that open only under stress...

Another possibility for a test would be to suspend your boat on some elevated supports so you can (partially?) drop the CB while in the upright position. Then attack the inside of the trunk with garden hose so simulate splashing water. For this test, you can alternatively unplug the openings to see how much water will come through them.

Again, the idea would be to see whether there are unexpected contributions from hidden leaks.