centerboard cable broke. repair or remove?

[seasick]

Hi all.
I'm a newbie from last year. I finally got my '73 daysailer in the water this year and the centerboard cable snapped. The centerboard is in the down position now and is basically 'aground' where it's docked. I'm hoping it will release at high tide.

I'm not sailing it this year--just taking it out by motor until the mast get repaired. So I would like to either repair the centerboard cable or remove it-for this season.

Which would be easier to do? The centerboard is completely covered from the inside of the boat. The area on the inside of the cuddy is where the cable comes out of.-- That little covered fiberglass area has obviously been cut and re-attached before--likely to be able to access the cable. I'm willing to cut it again if it gives me access to the centerboard to easily reattach.

Basiclaly I'm clueless as to how and where the thing is attached. I will gladly get under the boat with a couple of tools if it's just a couple of bolts or screws and I can remove it. There is no access inside the boat that I can see other than the under the small casing in the cuddy. Advise please

[GreenLake]

Someone from the DSII expert community will hopefully be by shortly with a bit of handholding. Until then, there are so many threads on the DSII centerboard lines that you'd expect that every issue is already covered. Happy spelunking!

[seasick]

Thank you, greenlake. I've been looking. See much about rigging...not replacing. and much about them getting stuck. I'm hoping that perhaps since the cable is broken that for now I can simply 'pull' the centerboard down and off the boat? that is in fact no longer actually attached..? I'm going to be working under water so I'd like some ideal of where and how the CB is attached. I need a quick easy fix ( I know I'm probably delusional) just so I can use the boat by motor for the rest of the season. I hope someone will respond soon! The boat's basically 'aground' and that's not good!

[GreenLake]

Well, the first thing to know is that you can put the DS on its side, even in the water.

If you have a handy beach, it will look like the picture, otherwise, one of the seats will probably submerge, but the CB should stay at/above waterline.

Some DSII have the plates at the bottom that hold in the CB. For others, the arrangement seems more complicated. Might be worthwhile for you to check.

If both up and downhaul are cut (and you can release the pivot as described above) then pulling the CB is not difficult. You won't have much joy of the boat though, even under motor, because w/o a CB it's not easy to steer it. Might wedge a suitable bit of (waterproof) plywood in there, with perhaps as little as 1sqft protruding; that might give you enough lateral resistance to allow your motor to turn the boat.

But, caveat, I've only worked on DS1s (the rest is from reading along here on the forum).

EDIT: make sure to pull on the spinnaker halyard or jib halyard not the main halyard - the former two are attached to the mast where it is supported by the stays, the latter attaches to the unsupported upper mast which could bend or snap off (esp. if the hull is stuck/loaded heavily).

[seasick]

thanks again. I've been doing alot of looking this evening old posts here and thru google searches. Really trying to picture how the board is attached and how and where the cables are attached that make it go up and down. (Uphaul--downhaul-- fine if up means up and down means down..you never know with these terms.) Frankly I recall the assembly seemed to work 'backwards' and was confusing even on the boat. I understand now that answers to this problem is not easy to describe or do.

I can picture a simple bolt attachment idea but not how two plates on either side on the hull would hold it. Can't picture that. ( Even looked on DR marine's website at all the parts.) I'm assuming now I cannot do it while in the water. (The mast is not on so hard to pull it over) I do not haul my own boat so it's spendy or at the very least imposing to friends to haul it. (I'm female and no experience so still not confident with that. I'm also aware that the more people waiting for the ramp and the bigger the audience--the more that will go wrong)

I did see a cutaway drawing of how the cables are attached and it appears they are both at the TOP of the CB The fore cable pulls it down, the aft pulls it up? but it seems like an odd placement for pulling up such a heavy piece. I suppose a cable that was situated further down the board would cause some kind of snag--I dunno.

Actually the best idea I've seen so far is to buy a sawsall. (okay--I'm not THERE yet ) But I'd like to remove the trunk portion that is in the cuddy (It's been removed once, I can see) and quite frankly cut the top off the rest of the CB trunk (I saw some discussion on this) It may not solve my problem today, but it thoroughly annoys me how that assembly is inaccessible. I also would have thought that the bolt that held the centerboard would have been inside the boat on either side of the CB trunk. (I'm a dreamer I know) Actually--thinking if I can re-string that cable I might just be able to swim under and attach it to the board.

I'm kind of at the point where..it's an old boat.. and I'm now using it for a learning experience. not just for boating, but for DYI learning too. Last year I used a rivet gun for my mast spreaders and installed a dive ladder. All greek to me initially but i got through it. The trailer and kicker are worth more than what I paid for the whole shebang so not much to lose. I don't think it's worth it to me to drop it at a marina and tell them to send me the bill. So--I'm going to take on the adventure of seeing what I can do. And as much as I like the option of being able to sail the boat, this mast is becoming too much for me to attach alone. (it came down last year--the bottom ripped--and the old rigging makes me nervous. It didn't go on this year). I may look for something smaller, or just a small hull to throw the engine on.

Anyway, still open to suggestions or more descriptions of how this damn thing is attached and how it moves (that helps when you want to fix it!) --even if it can't be done in the water. I will let you know how my sawzall idea works out.

[GreenLake]

The fear of embarrassment at the ramp - who hasn't felt it? Some people are just better at brazening it out...

The way the CB is held is by a "pivot", basically a large pin that sticks through it and into the CB trunk walls.

For some model years of DSII they figured out that instead of the pin going through a hole in the wall, they could just provide two small channels. You take a CB with a pin through it, and slide it up into the CB trunk opening -- so that one end of the pin winds up in each channel. These channels are very short, not much longer than the diameter of the pin. So, once the pin fits in them, you screw a metal plate over each channel opening, and the pin (and with it the CB) is secured.

That kind of arrangement should be easy to undo, if it is in fact the one you have. To check, you'd look closely at the edge of your CB trunk opening from the bottom. If it's straight fiberglass, then getting your CB out is harder and your sawzall idea is beginning to sound better (but let's hear from somebody who's actually worked on the DSII...)

If, however, you can feel that there are metal plates (I picture them roughly 1"x4" in size, based on the photos I've seen), then you can do the work from below. Even without a mast, it is not hard to get a DS on its side. From your description it sounds like it's in shallow water at the moment. Is it near a beach? If you can impose on 2-3 friends, you should be able to turn it enough to get it to float it to shore and there to flip it over (old tires make a good support).

The biggest problem with doing that repair on the beach may be if the screws or bolts that hold the metal plates won't come off easily.

Do you have a trailer for the boat? If so, getting it off the water isn't really difficult. Asking somebody with experience does help the first time around.

My very first time launching the DS by myself, the bow eye came off. I ended up calling a good friend for advice and he came and figured out the best approach. By now, I've accumulated enough experience to cope with a much wider range of disasters myself... don't be shy to impose a bit on your friends. Just make sure to reward them well, whether that means inviting them out on your boat, or perhaps not inviting them.

If your CB is really stuck in the down position, and won't budge even if you grab it by the tip, then getting the boat on a trailer isn't an option. I feel that I don't have a full understanding of your actual situation, so perhaps you might provide (or perhaps repeat) some of the details.

[DigitalMechanic]

Let me see if I can help a sister out

I have a 1976, so I am pretty sure that we both have the "thru-bolt" models. I think that version with the plates came later toward to 80's (if I remember what I thought I have read correctly, lol). Basically, with the "thru-bolt" style there are 2 inspection ports on either side of the centerboard trunk in the floor of the cockpit up by the cuddy opening. See below picture of starboard one on my boat...

If you open up that inspection port and look down inside it toward the centerboard you will find a bolt. If you remove that bolt the center board will drop so you can do your repair. I do not think that to fix the uphaul line you would have to completely drop it out, just enough to deal with the next part.... Below is my best attempt at a close up picture inside that inspection port showing the bolt you will be after....

On the bottom of the centerboard (from under the boat) you will see the cable going into the centerboard trunk on the lower part of the foremost bottom part of it (if that makes sense, if not I have a picture, lol). You would be able to fix this without dropping the centerboard at all if you want to re-engineer a little riskier repair. However to do it correctly, you have to lower it because the cable goes inside the centerboard, and then there is a little circle cutout about an inch up the starboard side of the centerboard that allows you to make a big old knot in the cable to keep it from pulling out of the hole that it is inserted in. See picture below...

I am to sure if this is good advice, but you could go with the an alternate option of fastening something like an eye strap to the centerboard and then tying the uphaul cable off in a knot on the other side of the eye strap. It looks like older centerboards may have used this technique. However, later you see that O'Day changed that so that the knot is tied off inside the fiberglass of the centerboard. That seems the most secure to me. The alternative "eye strap" option may pop off and require repair from time to time.

If it were me I would put it on the trailer and take it home to fix. Your centerboard should go right up when you slide it onto the trailer. If you thought the centerboard was stuck in the seabed, make sure that you are trying to move the boat at high tide. It may be that a low tide has sunk your centerboard into the mud.

I am going to sound real crazy now, so take the rest of this advice with zero liability from me if you dare, lol... If you are in a slip and cannot go forward (reverse is the only option in which is against the allowed movement of the centerboard), then you could try and take a long piece of rope (like docking line) and get it under the boat so that you can grab one end from on each side of the boat, and then try and pull each end of that rope back toward the back of the boat until it catches the centerboard. Then I would get in the back of the boat (should give you a 45 degree angle of pull) and see if you can use the rope to wiggle the centerboard loose and raise it with your rope sling contraption you just made. If successful, tie it off over the gunwales to keep the centerboard secured in the up position and then put the boat on the trailer and take it home for repair. If not successfully, you may have to get in the water and dig the centerboard out with your foot until you can get it to come up. If you have a couple hands you may be able to do the repair at the dock. The day sailer is a pretty light boat, my buddy and I can lift the whole rear of the thing up by ourselves (he is little bigger but I am 6.0ft and weigh 150lbs soaking wet, so I would not consider myself to be that strong). You could shim the backend with a 2x4 over the bunks of the trailer to get you the few inches clearance you need to drop the centerboard and tie the knot off in that hole. Then you will definitely need a hand to help line the centerboard back up with the hole the bolt goes through to re-secure it.

As for your mast, welcome to the club, lol. Mine went over about a year ago when I first got my boat. I didn't know any better, or much about rigging, what can I say... However, unless your mast has been cut back several times (from de-mastings), you should be able to re-use it. If you have a chop/miter saw, drill, and hammer you can do the job. You need a metal cutting blade for the chop/miter saw (few bucks from Home Depot or Lowe's) so that you can make a nice clean perfect cut, removing the damaged section(s) of mast by the tabernacle. The lower part(s) of the mast you cut away will have to have new holes drilled into it so you can re-fasten the mast casting. The hammer is to straighten out your tabernacle if it got bent. You may not notice problems with the tabernacle until you try and raise the mast again. The hammer job does not have to be perfect, as your rigging should correct any small void that still exists once re-adjusted. Also, because you probably took an inch (or 2) from the bottom of the mast, you will have to add it back. Take a section of 2x4 or 4x4 and make a block the length of the mast section that you sawed off, and fasten it to the bottom of the lower mast section that touches the cuddy floor. If you are reluctant about the seaworthiness of your standing rigging, replace it. D&R has it for a few hundred bucks, which I know is expensive, but beats the heck out of mast replacement or any potential danger on the water. If it is faulty or loose, you will lose the mast again. When I replaced the rigging on my boat, I also drilled out all the aluminum rivets that were responsible for "high pulling loads". They were all bad. These will be things that pull away from the mast, specifically the SS tangs that the side stays and forestay attach to. I will try and get a picture of my wood block repair thing that I used to compensate for the damaged section of mast I sawed out.

Good luck!

[klb67]

I have a 1976 DS II. It has 2 inspection ports, one on each side of the CB trunk in the cockpit. I am pretty sure your 73 should have those as well. Remove each port. IF your 73 CB is held in place by a bolt, you'll find a bolt head on one side of the CB and a lock nut on the other (both sides have a rubber bushing), possibly covered by silicone or other goop if a PO found it to be leaking there. You need to remove that bolt to allow the CB to drop out. IF your CB is held in place by the wedges instead, you'll need to find more info on the forum - I don't know that procedure.

I've careened my DS on its side several times to service the CB (I had to replace the cable and line, as my cable was broken when I got my boat). I have a nice beach just around the corner from my launch, and I took it there to careen it - bow straight into shore. It careened fairly easily just by lifting the gunnel, and a helper just adding a little bit of tension on the halyard to help steady the mast as it came over.

I suggest that you figure out which side has the bolt head, and careen the boat so that's up, vs. down - it will make it easier to remove and install the boat without risk of dropping it into the hull, to be gone forever (ask how I know).

Before I removed my board, I attached some thin line to the cable and line DH and UH so I'd be able to fish them back through to re-install - I'm not sure that's necessary but it certainly helped.

You can also careen your DS while at a dock, which you might need to do if your CB is stuck all the way down.

Good luck.

[DigitalMechanic]

Below are pics of the mast block thing I was talking about...

I has a spare casting I used below the block as well. I just knocked the recessed lip off with a grinder to make it flat. You probably won't need to do that. Once I de-masted my boat, I figured out quickly that it had been de-masted and cut before (my guess is at least 2 other times). So, I needed just a little more height than the wood block alone provided, and that casting somehow ended up being the perfect spacer for that extra smidge of height I needed.

[seasick]

Thank you Digital M and klb--to the moon--for your help! One of the things that is helping me the most is hearing that others have been thru these problems, repairs,and horrors (demasting etc.) and it has improved my morale today. -- not that misery loves company--but negates that feeling that this has happened Only b/c I was an idiot newbie, foolish to take on the challenge of boat ownership. ( But perhaps all boat-owners are fools by nature, idk)

A huge thanks for the pictures! Inspection ports. I wondered what those things were for. So that's where the bolt is. Also I didn't notice a CB trunk on yours forward of the cuddy like mine has.? That's the one I believe I definitely must cut, as the cable just comes thru a small hole. It was just forward of that where it broke. In fact the other end MAY still be inside that trunk portion. I may have been seeing things in my horror--but I thought that cable sneaked back inside when I futsed with it initially. What a miracle that would be if I could grab it and crimp the ends together for now.

I cannot reference the pics or posts as I write this but I still don't understand where the cables/ropes are attached to the CB. I can picture an attachment close to the top in the forward-- pulling that UP would pull down the CB. But I don't know where the other end attaches to to Raise the CB..? The drawing I saw indicated it was on top as well but to the aft. (seems like a long heavy piece to be hauled in from the top). If you know, kindly describe?

Realistically speaking I'm thinking now that unless the miracle happens I think I will be taking it out. Good to know it may not be impossible to careen on land and the tires trick. I would have to do it on the trailer though. Is that possible??? I'm going to try my best, but I may just have to take it to the marina and open my wallet. Your pics, experience and advice about the mast has given me new life about the boat. It seems cutting the mast from time to time is business as usual, and not complicated. A neighbor fixed the tabernacle. I see now that it happens a lot.

I also think not a bad idea to get behind the boat with rope or straps and pull the CB back as you suggested and tie it around the cabin for motoring to the ramp etc.Low water here. I have ratchet straps/belts? They are orange straps that have a ratchet closure to make tight and they will fit around the boat if I recall. (can't imagine what else they would be called). I am anxious to get over to the boat but traffic has me grounded here for awhile

Years ago a friend of my dads had a big wooden sailboat and would take us out night sailing. His centerboard 'trunk' was open at the top and I think the CB was just a piece of rounded plywood --maybe with some lead in it--that was lowered by a couple of ropes and cleated when up. Yeah--that's what I'm talkin' about!

I look forward to responses to my questions and any other thoughts or advice. Thanks again.

[seasick]

GreenLake--the boat is docked nose into the bulkhead--and will have to be backed out of the slip. I believe the CB is just stuck in the mud, and can likely be dug out. I haven't been there yet at high tide--so don't know if that releases it yet. I become especially stupid when bad things happen. Why I did not think to push the boat forward I don't know. I went under the boat several times but was actually surprised how 'far' the middle of the hull was! Guess I was nervous about getting bonked or I may have tried to pull it backwards. Anyway--that is how the boat is currently "aground". I could not lift the engine off myself with the boat rocking. It is my biggest concern right now. I'm not sure how it could get swamped like that--but I know aground where it can not swing and sway with the chop etc is probably not good. Fingers crossed.

[GreenLake]

If the boat is swamped (filled with water) then you need to bail it. The same inspection ports will allow you a view of and access to your bilge, in case that has water in it.

[GreenLake]

The key thing to keep in mind is that the CB rotates.

So, your uphaul isn't moving anything up, but causing the board to rotate around its pivot. (In a way, the CB gets "tucked into" the CB trunk). Perhaps that will help you when you try to figure out why the way the wires/ropes are lead seems funny.

The top of the CB is a rounded off rectangle. To get it to rotate, you fix the outhaul on the aft edge, then lead it up over the top of the CB forward, to a hole near the front of the CB. That way, if you pull at the rope, the attachment point wants to come up-and-forward in a circular motion around the pivot. (And the board rotates with it). Had you lead the rope straight up, it would pull at an ever more disadvantageous angle as the attachment point moves not only up but also forward (remember, rotation).

With that in mind, have a look at the many excellent diagrams in older posts. If you still can't picture it (and many people can't translate diagrams in their heads), just make yourself a small model from a sheet of cardboard. Cut out the shape of the CB trunk (a flat horizontal rectangle). Then cut out a slightly smaller rectangle for the CB. Use a pin for a pivot (fairly far forward near the bottom of the CB trunk). See how the CB rotates. Use a bit of thread to simulate the uphaul. It should all make sense.

[DigitalMechanic]

Also I didn't notice a CB trunk on yours forward of the cuddy like mine has.? That's the one I believe I definitely must cut, as the cable just comes thru a small hole.

That part is there on my boat, you just cant see it in the pictures. I don't think you want to cut the fiberglass. If you do, you will have to re-patch it before putting it back in the water, else water will come through into the cuddy.

In fact the other end MAY still be inside that trunk portion.

Lol, so I gave you instructions on the downhaul, not the uphaul. Doh... You need to re-connect the SS cable so you can pull it up I am having a dyslexic day.

It was just forward of that where it broke.

So, part of the the SS cable broke that is inside the cuddy. If the cable broke (vs just pulled out of the centerboard) you will have to make a new cable. A picture of what is left in there may help. The end of the SS cable that attaches to the rope up by the mast should have made a ring around a piece of metal (wall inside of the ring) and come into a nicopress fitting. It does not feel like that end should have been able to go through the little hole in the grommet that the cable was going through, but could be wrong. Is there a piece of the SS cable still in the cuddy?

I cannot reference the pics or posts as I write this but I still don't understand where the cables/ropes are attached to the CB.

So, if you were looking at my picture from before where the centerboard is up in the trunk, draw a line up to the top most side (top right curved corner) of the centerboard in the up position. That is where I believe the SS cable attaches to a tang. Basically, when the CB is down the cable would pull the top aft part of the centerboard forward (towards the cable hole), causing it to draw up the CB trunk. You will have to completely remove the centerboard to fix that one. If the cable did not physically break, I bet the holes that held the tang the SS cable attaches to have stripped out, and you will have to tap/drill new ones

The drawing I saw indicated it was on top as well but to the aft.

With the centerboard down, this would be a correct explanation.

Realistically speaking I'm thinking now that unless the miracle happens I think I will be taking it out. Good to know it may not be impossible to careen on land and the tires trick. I would have to do it on the trailer though. Is that possible??? I'm going to try my best, but I may just have to take it to the marina and open my wallet.

I think you are going to have to get the boat back off the trailer, as you will have to completely drop the centerboard out to get to the top corner of it where the SS cable attaches.

It seems cutting the mast from time to time is business as usual, and not complicated. A neighbor fixed the tabernacle. I see now that it happens a lot.

Actually you do not want this to ever happen That is why I said don't worry about a new mast, use your budget to get your rigging replaced and/or adjusted. Replace all rivets, etc. I am not sure how your mast failed, but mine was because of rotted aluminum rivets that were holding a SS shroud tang (the metal plate where the cable attaches to the side of the mast). When the puff of wind set in my sail, it popped and the mast violently went overboard. Luckily no one was hurt, but the current almost took us into the footing of a bridge at one point while we were scrambling to recover everything back into the boat. Luckily once we cleared the bridge, the outboard got snagged on a crab trap and stopped us so we could catch our breath. Anyway, I never want that to happen to me or anyone on my boat again, lol. So, before thinking of any other repairs, standing rigging was first and foremost. Once you know your rigging is solid, you will have to adjust it all so it is tight and the mast is centered and raked correctly, etc. There are guides to so this, and is actually pretty fun. A lot more fun that popping rivets

I also think not a bad idea to get behind the boat with rope or straps and pull the CB back as you suggested and tie it around the cabin for motoring to the ramp etc.Low water here. I have ratchet straps/belts? They are orange straps that have a ratchet closure to make tight and they will fit around the boat if I recall. (can't imagine what else they would be called). I am anxious to get over to the boat but traffic has me grounded here for awhile

I am not saying it is 100% going to work, but minimal effort is involved and worth a try. It will probably give you enough leverage if you can finesse the CB free from the sand. If you have docking line, it is usually long and should sink to the sea floor. Seems like a good rope to try and get underneath the boat.

If the SS cable is broken (not pulled out) read on... You may consider letting someone work on it if you plan to replace it with another SS cable (which it feels like you should). Unfortunately, (I am pretty sure) the ends of the new replacement cable will have to be put in a nicopress to create a ring on each end, and that will have to be done once the cable is fished through the uphaul hole. Unless you can rent a nicopress, you might actually come out on top paying someone to so the work. A nicopress tool runs nearly $500.

With that said, I could be wrong. To test if you can pre-nicopress, you could try and remove the grommet that is in the uphaul hole and take it to a West Marine. They usually have a nicopress tool laying out for the public to use. This is great if you can do it in the store, but does not help you if you need it on the boat, lol. Anyway, you could try and take a piece of SS cable and make a ring with the nicopress. Find the most muscular looking employee you can find to do this, because you really have to squeeze those things hard. When nobody was looking, I put the tool on the floor and tried to stand on it at one point, lol. If you can squeeze the ring you just made through the grommet, then you know you can pre-make your replacement cable You just now need to know the corrcect length (which having the broken pieces would help you do).

[DigitalMechanic]

I think that this is the image you want from previous discussions...

Looks like 15.5 inches for the SS cable from nicopress to nicropress.