DSII Rudder head specs?

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DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby BananaCollision » Fri May 18, 2018 4:02 pm

Is anybody willing to measure your DSII rudder head for me?

The DSII rudder head is made of two painted metal sheets with stand-offs.

I need to know:
1) What is the metal, steel, stainless steel, or aluminum? Is yours corroding anywhere?
2) How thick is the metal sheet?
3) What is the width, (either outer width or inner width == tiller width, please specify)

Thanks a lot! I lost my DSI rudder when I capsized last weekend, am planning to build a new one of the DSII style.
I have the class legal rudder blade measurements from https://forum.daysailer.org/dsa_handboo ... e%20Detail but I don't know how strong I need to build the head.
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby GreenLake » Sat May 19, 2018 11:14 pm

I built a rudder from scratch using plywood, not metal (see here Building a rudder).

This has generally proven strong enough, with one caveat. The brackets I was able to obtain for the pintles were only able to span about 1". To fit them, I cut channels into the rudderhead, which at the front of the head reduced the area where the "cheeks" (holding the blade) are connected to the rest of the head.

Were I to build another one, I would, first, add one more layer of glass on the outside of the "cheeks" and second, I might dig out the "channels a bit deeper and wider, and line them glass and resin (to provide a continuous load-bearing skin).

(All of this will make sense only in reference to the original post, which also contains drawings).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby BananaCollision » Sun May 20, 2018 12:00 am

GreenLake wrote:I built a rudder from scratch using plywood, not metal


I'm building roughly according to the old article you linked, as working with metal is more comfortable for me than fiberglassing complex shapes, I'm annoyed with how heavy the old rudder was when moving it, and installing a downhaul line seems easier if I can route it through the rudder head.

But I feel like the 3/16" aluminum plate for the rudder head in that article must be overkill; I'm thinking to copy the stock DSII rudder head material selection if I can find it out.
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby badgley » Sun May 20, 2018 9:03 am

I'm not sure about other models, but I have a 82 DSII and I'm 99.99% sure the rudder is completely stock and also entirely fiberglass. I thought the metal heads were home built or aftermarket replacements, but maybe I'm wrong about that. If any pictures or measurements from a fiberglass one are helpful, let me know. Good luck!
Brian Badgley
1982 DS II #10911 EGRETTA
Blacksburg, VA, USA
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby BananaCollision » Sun May 20, 2018 10:57 am

badgley wrote:I have a 82 DSII and I'm 99.99% sure the rudder is completely stock and also entirely fiberglass.

I'm talking about the rudder head style in this thread with pictures from hsubman. This is similar or identical to the DR Marine listing Daysailer II & III Rudder & Tiller Complete.

Image

Is this not the DSII stock rudder?

The rudder I lost was like this one. Hanging my body 2/3 out of the boat each launch to push the rudder down and tighten the clamp did not make me happy.
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby Alan » Sun May 20, 2018 11:13 am

Somewhere in the fine print on the D&R website, it says that the all-fiberglass rudder (which I have on my 1980 DSII) was used through 1982-1/2, and the aluminum rudder head was used from 1983 on.

And I completely agree about hanging over the transom to raise and lower the rudder blade.
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby GreenLake » Sun May 20, 2018 5:36 pm

A "hollow" rudder head does have the advantage of easy routing for a downhaul. (Having the luxury of launching from a dock deep enough to mount the rudder in the fully down position, I don't bother with a DH...).

I agree that 3/16" sounds like "expedition quality" overkill. It might be something to consider for those that take their DS to the Tx200 or similar events, where rudders can get stressed and breaking down is not an option. (If you were to incorporate some spacers that aren't just localized where the bolts are, but perhaps are 1"x1" wide strips of some plastic that run the front and rear edge of the rudder head, you would do a lot towards making the whole much stiffer, as you would effectively create box).

I very much understand the preference to work with more familiar materials.

I just want to counter-act the suggestion that using fiberglass is necessarily difficult for this application. It might be, if you tried to create a hollow rudder blade from two shells laminated in a mold. If, instead, you simply create a shaped blank, wrapping it a bit of fiberglass sheath is not really that difficult. In my construction, I ended up with a very thin sheath. It might be possible to use a structurally weaker blank (foam?) and then add more laminate to provide a strong skin - that I can see getting tricky around the tip of the blade, which is why I didn't go there.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby BananaCollision » Sun May 20, 2018 5:57 pm

The blade I am making out of ordinary plywood with a couple layers of glass.

It's only the rudder head holding the blade onto the boat that I am making out of metal.
It seemed like attempting to make a rudder head, making cheek blocks, glassing them all separately, then glassing them together to make a waterproof head with socket in it to accept the blade, all of which actually fitting together with proper tolerance, would likely leave me standing around with goo in my hair and cheek blocks stuck to my shirt.
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby Alan » Sun May 20, 2018 9:56 pm

Well, at least you wouldn't smell like gear oil, like I used to often enough back in my British sports car days. :lol:

GL reminded me that there's a definite benefit to the old-style rudder: You can kick it up to 90 degrees horizontal and still have a way to steer in very shallow water. At the end of the most recent California drought, that was the only way to get out of the Meeks Bay marina at Lake Tahoe. We were one of three remaining sailboats in a 150-slip marina, and there would have been no space for us at all if we hadn't been able to maneuver in water less than a foot deep.
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby GreenLake » Sun May 20, 2018 10:29 pm

My process was to make head and blade from the same blank.

Shaped the foil while head was still attached (which gave me a nice flat area to clamp the piece to the bench for shaping).

Sheathed blade in glass - that's a step you need anyway. (Keep the blade vertical and wrap a single piece of cloth from the front edge). This layer is merely for scratch protection, not so much for strength.

I sheathed the head (while still connected to the blade if memory serves) so that the blade would be as wide as the head (and to get correct separation for the cheeks that way). Tricky part is how to support the work piece - I think I used something like nails and/or wire, suspending it after wrapping. Or may have drilled one of the holes already and used that. (More likely, because coating the inside of all holes with epoxy is a thing and can be taken care of for the ones that got a nylon bushing. Those wouldn't need to be drilled out wider nor filled completely with epoxy).

The inside of the cheeks would have to be glassed before assembly - that's a single layer, not wrap around. If you have the work space, you do it at the same time as the blade.

The outside of the head and cheeks can be done at the same time after they've been glued together. Depending on the bracket for the pintles, you may need to cut a channel as they are unlikely to span the cheek. If you do that before doing the outside glass, you can make that a bit deeper and wider (gentle shoulders). Then glass everything (cheek and head - one side at a time), using a dual or triple layer where you expect more stress, otherwise, just a single rather light layer for scratch resistance.

Incidentally, none of that work will be very time consuming compared to fairing the blade and painting. That level surface prep usually takes half the time on a project like that; the "structural" work is almost easy by comparison, no matter how you do it.

I didn't worry about the edges of the cheeks - they are not very exposed in normal use and simply sealing them in epoxy is sufficient, no need to stress getting glass there. Same, really for top and aft edge of rudder head. (The front got glass because of the way I wrapped the piece). Same for top end of blade or bottom end of head: after cutting them apart (and while glueing on the cheeks) I used some of the epoxy to seal the new edge.

For the pivot hole and tiller bolt hole I used nylon bushings, but for throughbolting the pintle brackets I oversized the holes, filled them with epoxy and then drilled them again - that way none of the bolts can wear away the epoxy sealing the holes.

As mentioned, sanding and fairing the blade took the longest. The rough blank had some flat spots. I've learned a new technique, which is to use a spreader with V notches to spread the fairing compound. You then sand the ridges to the template, and in the next pass, just fill the valleys with a straight spreader. Much faster and more accurate than trying to build up thickness any other way.

Did coat the fairing compound with neat epoxy when done - and cut the tip off the finished rudder (and glued it back on): that way, if the tip gets damaged and becomes waterlogged, the moisture cannot travel up the full blade.

Anyway, I find that being a bit organized about what parts can get epoxied in the same phase of your project makes for an optimized work flow.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DSII Rudder head specs?

Postby badgley » Mon May 21, 2018 11:10 am

BananaCollision wrote:
badgley wrote:I have a 82 DSII and I'm 99.99% sure the rudder is completely stock and also entirely fiberglass.

I'm talking about the rudder head style in this thread with pictures from hsubman. This is similar or identical to the DR Marine listing Daysailer II & III Rudder & Tiller Complete.

Image

Is this not the DSII stock rudder?

The rudder I lost was like this one. Hanging my body 2/3 out of the boat each launch to push the rudder down and tighten the clamp did not make me happy.


As I said, I might be wrong - turns out I was right about that! It looks like they switched to the metal in 83 according to D&R, so mine must have been one of the last to have the glass head. I have the same type that you lost, so sorry I can't help.
Brian Badgley
1982 DS II #10911 EGRETTA
Blacksburg, VA, USA
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