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Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:54 am
by badgley
GreenLake wrote:I wouldn't think of "Amsteel" as "crazy".

Fair point! I just meant that you don't have to go out of your way to get the least stretchy rope possible. Even some double braid that you might already happen to have laying around might be better than the 3-strand.

Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:03 pm
by GreenLake
Brian, I was just messing with you a bit. Your point came through quite clearly.

Just to continue the line of thought: if I go out and purchase rope for some purpose, I can either select by best match to the requirements or by price. I've done both. When I purchased my jib sheets, it was an offcut. I would have never picked that kind of rope from the roll, but the price was right, and other than it being a bit heavy in light airs, I've been very happy with it. (It's total overkill, I could probably suspend boat, trailer and towing vehicle from it, but it handles well and seems to age well).

When I just need a short length of something, but don't have something lying around, I enjoy browsing the ropes at the local marine store and may well try something that's more expensive per foot but promises to work well.

Three-strand: I purchased some for docking lines early in my boat owning days, because I wanted to splice eyes in them using a traditional short splice. All my docking is rather temporary, so I don't have to worry about qualities that are important for lines left unattended in all kinds of conditions. So, I now use some solid braid that's lighter and smoother, but grippy and belays well on the stern cleats.

What I'm trying to say is that, over the years, I've moved on - some things I used to swear by don't seem so great any more, and some other stuff has become available that's interesting and in some ways better than anything I tried before.

For this particular discussion I can't really contribute specifics, because I don't own a DS with a rope operated CB, but I sailed on one boat that had a wire for the uphaul (not a DS, but a small boat with a 200lbs steel plate). The owner had a spare, and that was made from Amsteel and we were able to rig that one with the boat careened in shallow water. I'm glad he had made the switch, because fitting that was way easier than working with wire cable.

Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:38 pm
by GleamB
As I mentioned in a previous post, I need advice on if and how I should rig the cb. As you can see in the attached pictures, I currently have a black line, about 1/2”, to lower the cb, and a white nylon line, about 3/16”, to raise it. There is no cable coming from the cb to the cuddy. There is no evidence of any hardware at the top of the cuddy for a block attachment.
Is it worth the trouble to redo something a previous owner abandoned?
How do I proceed?
Where do I get proper metal cable?
How do I rig the lines.
Pictures would help.
I have Conrad’s book, but still need help with this.
Anyone near Bangor Maine, who I can visit?

Oops. Tried to upload picture from Google Phots but got message it was too big Just spent an hour searching how to downsize o luck.
Wanted to include pic if inside cuddy. Don’t have this problem on other forums.

Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:34 pm
by GreenLake
@GleamB: for your image, if your image is hosted on some other site, copy the link to the imags, then press the little "Img" button on top of the post-a-reply editor and then paste the link between the two "img" tags in square brackets. That usually works without any size restrictions.

Unlike many other sites with more modern software, our forum cannot resize images on upload. There's a "How to use this forum" section which has details on posting images and how to resize them, if you have something that you might like to permanently upload here. Generally, we prefer that approach, but primarily for images that will have some lasting value. For a quick, "can you help me with this" picture, externally stored images are fine.

Now, to your CB issue.

I think the best would be for you to put your boat on its side and manually pull out the the CB and then see what is up with those lines. In your earlier post you write the "neither line moves the CB" - I assume that means when it's in the water, because on the trailer, the CB should be supported from below and not able to move.

You write that you read older posts: the most common thing is that the lines get fouled and get wedged between CB and trunk. The way people deal with that is to tension the lines with some shock cord. The blocks on the cuddy floor (near the mast) serve to increase the mechanical advantage for the uphaul. That one is in the direction where it has to work against gravity. The downhaul does not, and I have sailed on a DSII that did not have any blocks (pulleys) underneath the cuddy deck.

For the uphaul, this image shows (almost) everything:
The bit that is the "metal cable" is replaced by the "white line" in your setup. The ugly three-strand is a line you would have to supply that is then lead to the cockpit and cleated off somewhere. The system, as shown, is a 4:1. (If you feel that is overkill, you could leave out two blocks and turn it into a 2:1).

There's no need for any of the lines to be metal cable. You may in fact be able to use the lines that exist (after you cleared them where they are most likely wedged between CB and trunk). If only one of these got wedged, you know which one you should rig with some shock cord so it is always under tension. (In the photo, if you wanted to keep the uphaul tensioned, you'd lead some shock cord to the unused eye strap.)

Please let us know how whether this allows you to make progress and also whether you were able to fix your spreader issue.

Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:40 pm
by GleamB
Thanks. My photos are in Google Photos, so I don’t know how to create a link. I have searched the internet and asked my guru nephew, but no help to downsize the photos.
I currently have the boat on sawhorse. I can move the cb up and down with no binding.
If I could send pictures, there is a smaller line at the top of the trunk, aft, that I pull the cb up with. The larger black line is routed up, forwards on the trunk, still in the cockpit.That is pulled to get the the cb down.
I was reluctant to pull the cb out, but would do so, if it is worth the effort. From what I read, what you show as a metal cable attaches to the top of the cb and exits through the front of the trunk, in the cuddy. This hole is now vacant. I think I understand that it would be that line which is bungied. If, as you mention, I could route the larger black line, the down line, through the front of the trunk, I’m not sure that the system will still work. Mind you, the previous owner, and/ or another previous owner abandoned the designed system to become a “ pull up” to go down and “pull up” for up. I look at the abandoned pulleys and think it might make lifting the cb easier, but is it worth the effort?
And in my set up, there is a block on the left side where you have a fixed tie off for the lines. Also, there is NO apparent spot where the lines would attach to the top of the cuddy entrance. I have read that people didn’t like how this made access to the cuddy difficult.
I keep my boat out on our lake, deep enough to leave the cb down. I am new to sailing, so I don’t raise and lower the cb while sailing.
I am grateful for your response. As to the spreaders, I would lie to you if I said I understood what was suggested about using plastic ties. When I step the mast down at the end of the season, I have broken a spreader, twice. I know I am doing something wrong.

Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:14 pm
by GreenLake
For the spreaders, if you could comment on the other thread with the suggested fix by describing where/how yours are broken that would be a start. Please there, to keep thread drift at bay.

For the CB I'll have to go from your descriptions. Your saw horses are fine equivalent to having the boat sideways for this purpose.

Downhaul: It's clear that the black line is the downhaul and that it perhaps has been routed to an opening a few inches further aft, so as to be accessible directly from the cockpit. As far as I can tell, this should work. There is a danger that the line can go slack and wedge itself somewhere, but if it really is 1/2", it seems that someone has tried to use a large diameter to make that less likely. The downhaul would attach to the forward top end of the CB and with the CB swung up, you should be able to see it from below when the boat is on saw horses.

Uphaul: by elimination, this makes the white line the uphaul. Normally the system is designed so that this is fixed to the aft top end of the CB and from there goes up and forward following the curve of the board until it exits in the front face of the CB trunk (inside the cuddy) where it is attached to a block and a bit of shock cord (as shown in the small insert in the diagram that's earlier in this thread). There's a separate line that forms part of the block and tackle (pulley system in layman's terms) that pulls on that uphaul. That line would be lead aft to the cockpit to be cleated.

Now, from your description it sounds like someone got tired of that arrangement and simply routed the uphaul straight "up", exiting thus on the aft top of the centerboard trunk. This probably required moving the attachment point on the CB further down, to the middle of the rear edge of the blade, as the original anchor point would scarcely promise to give enough leverage. This new routing would have the advantage of reducing the scope for the line to wedge itself between bladed and trunk (which is good) but might require a good bit of force to move the blade.

Also, of course with the two lines, both have to be uncleated at the same time, and one needs to be paid out while you pull on the other, otherwise the one you are not pulling on will hold the board in place.

Your options are to restore the factory system for the uphaul, or sail with what you have.

Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:19 pm
by GreenLake
The green line in these pictures should be where your black line attaches. Note how it wedges itself. The owner of this boat has modified the top of his CB to provide a positive channel in which the downhaul is guided. Depending on whether a wedged downhaul is or isn't a concern for you, this modification may be useful.

Details here.

Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:29 pm
by GleamB
You nailed it!! That is exactly my dilemma. I was reaching out to the forum to see if I should try and reroute the lines back to their original design. There is a part of me that believes I should try, because, as you noted, it does take some effort to raise the cb. I will try and get a better understanding of how the PO attached the UH to the cb. I may just leave things as they are, for the time being. Maybe I’ll meet a DS owner, someday, who is more knowledgeable than I am, and we can tackle the project, together!
Once again, thanks for your help. I am SURE that I will on the forum again with some other gremlin, in the future.

Re: New Guy with a Centerboard question

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:56 pm
by GreenLake
The original design better allows for mechanical advantage. At the risk of the more complicated routing. Really, up to you what you prefer. (Leaving your CB down can increase your risk of capsize in some situations, because the boat cannot scud sideways when buffeted by a gust - however, if you stick to lower/moderate wind strengths as a beginner, that's a bit less of an issue).